Crocus December 2009

[mark smyth]

The intermediate flowers are very good eye candy. Thanks for showing them

[Janis Ruksans]

Now, is it a natural, fertile hybrid or an intermediate form between the two species?
Or, can it be cancellatus damascenus [by the form of the corm]?
Any suggestions?

Oron, It could be possible that both hybridize because cancellatus has the same chromosome number. As I know damascenus - its covering sheets is more coarse, so I don't think that it is damascenus. I suppose that best would be if you will try to cross both possible species (both ways) under controlled conditions. By flowers they really looks indistinguishable. And if this cross will succeed - you will know is this so or not. In any case by corm tunic I would separate this intermediate form from cancellatus. But really due growing conditions very unfavourable to Crocuses of your district my experience with those species is short or absent.
Janis

[tonyg]

Like Janis I have only limited experience with these dryland taxa. Clearly the Crocus hermoneus corm you show is quite distinct from the other two.  The 'intermediate' form may well be a hybrid ... but is it a recent hybrid or an ancient one?  It would be interesting to raise new plants from its seed.  Indeed does it set seed?  If so it might be a 'stable' hybrid ie one that is evolving / has evolved into a stable form.  Then we might have to give it a different name.
BUT    Perhaps the intermediate and the other (not hermoneus) are just variations within the 'normal' cancellatus of the area.  We are used to the variation in flowers, perhaps other aspects are also variable.  It would be interesting to study a large number of these plants, such a sample might give us the 'big picture'.
I think you are the expert in this question Oron.  You are able to study the plants in the wild.  Your observations and reports are very valuable.

..... Perhaps I should join you next year and we can make a big study of these wonderful plants

[Janis Ruksans]

..... Perhaps I should join you next year and we can make a big study of these wonderful plants

May be I can join? Really I would very like to visit Israel next autumn and to go to see autumn crocuses in nature.
Janis

[Oron Peri]

Janis and Tony,
Thank you so much for giving your opinion regarding this question.
One of tne vantages of this form is that we can have a 'brain trust' online which is very helpfull.

I have offered on a few occasions to organize a crocus tour in Israel and it is still valid!!
so both of you and other 'croconuts' are welcome, i think it would be great to hear more opinions regarding some of the populations.

Tony, the 'intermediate' is a stable form, there are large populations of it growing over a few km.
it sets seeds freely, and has been known for many years also dew to the fact that it is the only crocus growing in the far south of the Golan Heights.
I think you brought up two valid options but it is difficult to say wether it is a stable hybrid or as you have said a a variation within the cancellatus.
Well maybe if you come next Autumn we can decide together  

[Ian Y]

Great pictures and reports Oron, beautiful Crocus flowers and corms -most stimulating.
I only wish the weather in Aberdeen was more amenable to growing them.

I have offered on a few occasions to organize a crocus tour in Israel and it is still valid!!
so both of you and other 'croconuts' are welcome, i think it would be great to hear more opinions regarding some of the populations.

Count me in.   

[Oron Peri]

Just to show some more variation in the cancellatus populations:

On the left sample of the population from center Golan Heights [790m], robust plants, corms are big and more flat in form while the other, on the right is from a higher population [1050], tiny plants, elongated corms. this population is growing in wet highlands and are covered with snow each year.

[Oron Peri]

Thanks Ian

It would be a pleasure to have you here, and just think that today it is 22c down here.
infact i think some of my bulbs are sweating at the moment...

[mark smyth]

22 would be an average UK summer - oops I posted this in the wrong thread

[Janis Ruksans]

Just to show some more variation in the cancellatus populations:

On the left sample of the population from center Golan Heights [790m], robust plants, corms are big and more flat in form while the other, on the right is from a higher population [1050], tiny plants, elongated corms. this population is growing in wet highlands and are covered with snow each year.

Both corms on this picture has very coarse tunic regardless of size and shape, tunics are of same type. This intermediate form on earlier entry has very different tunic, so, if it is growing widely and forms constant population, most possibly it is different taxa, may be another subsp. of cancellatus? Or even different still undescribed species?
Janis

[art600]

I know that some forumists do not like cats - I do, and one in particular my own special mouser Gemma.  At a ripe old age of 15, she can still catch those little b.....s that decimated my Crocus.

The proof

[Maggi Young]

Good to see that Gemma is not yet in retirement, Art ! The habit of the feline pets to bring their prey into the house to display to the owner is  a trait that I am so glad that dogs do not copy!

[art600]

I am just glad she killed this one before she started playing with it - generally just stunned.

[mark smyth]

Arthur you need to make sure the cat doesnt catch and eat mice that have been poisoned.

[art600]

Fortunately Mark she has never eaten one of her kills - and there have been planty over the years.

She is so proud to show them as trophies, along with wood pigeon feathers - now there is a pest!