Narcissus September - December 2009

[Brian Duncan]

Anthony, they are N. miniatus, but I labeled them Narcissus deficiens Herbert, following our Spanish botanist. This species is the one that occurs in the Mediterranean and Narcissus serotinus grows only in North Morocco and South Spain/Portugal. So your narcisus is N. miniatus.

N. x moronensis is N. serotinus x N. cavanillesii, it s the old N. x perez-larae. Perez Lara described this hybrid with N. miniatus and N. x cavanillesii as parents and Gerd has described this hybrid between N. serotinus and N. cavanillesii.

It was published in Herbertia: Narcissus × moronensis G.Knoche -- Herbertia 62: 48 (45-58; figs. 4-8). 2009 ["2008"]

Hello Rafa,
Thanks for answering my question to Gerd. But first, you said you labelled N. miniatus as N. deficiens. This may well prove to be the correct name - as you know there is much controversy. The distinction between the yellow cupped, mainly single flowered  N. serotinus and the larger, orange cupped, often multiflowered scape of what we now call N. miniatus has been long recognised and earlier names, your N. deficiens and N. obsoletus  might gain favour by the precedence rules of nomenclature. This controversy is interestingly covered by two articles in the current RHS Daffodil, Tulip and Snowdrop Yearbook by Dr John David RHS Head of Botany and Harold Koopowitz, the author of N. miniatus. There are also many other interesting articles on snowdrops, tulips, species daffodils, etc. in the Year Book.

 

[Brian Duncan]

North Morocco and South Spain/Portugal. So your narcisus is N. miniatus.

N. x moronensis is N. serotinus x N. cavanillesii, it s the old N. x perez-larae. Perez Lara described this hybrid with N. miniatus and N. x cavanillesii as parents and Gerd has described this hybrid between N. serotinus and N. cavanillesii.

It was published in Herbertia: Narcissus × moronensis G.Knoche -- Herbertia 62: 48 (45-58; figs. 4-8). 2009 ["2008"]

Hello again Rafa and Gerd,
I must have hit a wrong button - I had not finished commenting. Ref. N.x perezlarae it was published as N. cavanillesii x N. serotinus ( the latter we now regard as N. miniatus, pending outcome of the debate). The question I ask, is it appropriate to publish a new hybrid name under this precise same parentage until someone properly publishes the revised parentage of N. x perezlarae. I am not a Taxonomist or a botanist but I find this confusing and I think great care needs to be taken in the creation of new names to avoid any risk of duplication.  I will try to find the references you have noted to study further.
Brian Duncan

[Gerdk]

Hello again Rafa and Gerd,
I must have hit a wrong button - I had not finished commenting. Ref. N.x perezlarae it was published as N. cavanillesii x N. serotinus ( the latter we now regard as N. miniatus, pending outcome of the debate). The question I ask, is it appropriate to publish a new hybrid name under this precise same parentage until someone properly publishes the revised parentage of N. x perezlarae. I am not a Taxonomist or a botanist but I find this confusing and I think great care needs to be taken in the creation of new names to avoid any risk of duplication.  I will try to find the references you have noted to study further.
Brian Duncan

Brian,
Please read the Narcissus miniatus publication by Donnison-Morgan, Koopowitz, Zonneveld and Howe in the RHS Daffodil, Snowdrop and Tulip Yearbook 2005-2006 where the existence of two different species, miniatus and serotinus s.str. is well documented by morphological differences, chromosome counts and flow cytometric measurements of nuclear DNA content.
In the Herbertia publication mentioned I used the same methods which provide evidence that N. x perezlarae was a cross of miniatus x cavanillesii. I have to admit that taxonomical changes are confusing especially concerning daffodils.
If you want me to send the Herbertia article please send me a pm.

Gerd

[Alessandro.marinello]

Today in flower Narcissus viridiflorus

[Gerdk]

Today in flower Narcissus viridiflorus

Alessandro - meravigliosa!

I add Narcissus x alleniae , the hybrid viridiflorus x miniatus here. Sorry, pics are a little bit out of focus.

Gerd

[Alessandro.marinello]

Gerd
beautiful also the N.x alleniae, these minimus turn out difficult to photograph

[Paul T]

Gerd,

I like the hybrid even more than the viridiflorus species I think (and I like the speces!!).  Thanks for the pics everyone.

[Anthony Darby]

I must move my plants into a warmer/lighter winter environment, though how I do the latter I don't know?!

[Janis Ruksans]

Narcissus serotinus pictured this week at ruins of Hieraklion in SE Turkey.
Janis

[Ragged Robin]

Janis, what a find that is exquisite 

[Paul T]

Beautiful, Janis.  Nice of the plant to arrange it's flowers so perfectly for photography too.    Great stuff. 

[BULBISSIME]

Wonderfull clump Janis, and well captured !!

[Arykana]

Janis, those white flowers made me envious

[Lesley Cox]

Narcissus serotinus pictured this week at ruins of Hieraklion in SE Turkey.
Janis

It must be fantastic to see such plants in such a setting. I have some young plants of Fritillaria persica which I obtained as 'Petra Form' and though they're not flowering size yet, in my mind I always see them blooming against the cliff face buildings of the rose-red city. In reality they will probably come from somewhere like the area near Petra pictured on page 32 of the Oncos thread.

[Anthony Darby]

Shouldn't we be calling these Narcissus miniatus?