Narcissus September - December 2009

[Gerdk]

I have not seen the original publication of N.x alleniae or heard of the locus classicus but it is most likely that hybrids between N. viridiflorus and both N. serotinus and N. miniatus do exist. As far as I lnow both N. viridiflorus and N. serotinus grow together in Morocco and I'm sure they do hybridise.

Narcissus x alleniae was described by Derrick Donnison-Morgan in the  'New Plantsman 7(1)41-42 in 2000. The hybrid was found at a roadside between Medina Sidonia and Chiclana de la Frontera, Cadiz Province. The parents were called N. serotinus and N. viridiflorus - in the RHS Daffodil yearbook 2005-2006 it was corrected that the serotinus parent was in fact miniatus. N. serotinus s.str. does not exist at the site mentioned.
Sadly, due to the construction of a new road in 2006 the locus classicus of alleniae was more or less destroyed together with 80 % of a population of Nn. cavanillesii, x perezlarae, miniatus and viridiflorus.

Gerd

[Regelian]

Gerd,

this makes sense, as both viridiflorus and miniatus are tetraploids, while serotinus is a diploid.

What a shame that the populations were destroyed.  Nuf said!

As to which parent was the pollen or pod, I don't see what a difference this would make to the hybrid name, but two different parent, despite similarities, create a different hybrid, clearly.  I would think that N. x alleniae would still be the correct name, as it was given to the plant, not to the parentage.  Now that the parentage is clear, this can be corrected.  Do we even know if a hybrid between serotinus and viridiflorus would be realistic.  If the plants are not sympatric, at least not in the wild.  As a triploid, the off-spring may well be infertile and thus cannot establish themselves as a new, reproducing taxon.  In any case, if described, it would require a new name.

Apparently, according to Zonnefeld, N. miniatus is an ancient hybrid between N. serotinus and N. elegans, which has become an allotetraploid and can thus sexually reproduce.

[Anthony Darby]

So Narcissus miniatus and N. serotinus are both found together in Spain?

[Rafa]

Iteresting!
Anthony, all plants mentioned grows in Spain. N.deficiens (or N. miniatus) grows in Mediterranan countries and N. serotinus is more atlantic plant growing in North Moroco and South Spain (Algarve and Extremadura). There is also N. elegans (now we call it N. obsoletus) in Malaga and Baleares.

Gerd knows very well the problem of inhabit destruction in Cadiz, and many localities are now between houses. In Spain it grows at least in Cadiz, but I am sure it also there are few in Sevilla and Malaga.

Precisely I am in Cadiz border Malaga trying to find any population in a UTM in Malaga province.

[Luc Gilgemyn]

First as usual for me is Cedric Morris

Cedric looks very good Mark !
First sign of Spring ....?.. with Winter still to come.. 

[mark smyth]

Hopefully not a bad winter this year, Luc

[Alessandro.marinello]

currently in flower, Narcissus cantabricus

[Rafa]

This group of N. papyraceus and subsp. (now species) are not very clar for me...
This is Narcissus papyraceus subsp. polyanthos

[Rafa]

Narcissus papyraceus subsp. papyraceus is also starting to bloom

[Anthony Darby]

Maybe I could teach in Spain?

[ian mcenery]

This group of N. papyraceus and subsp. (now species) are not very clar for me...
This is Narcissus papyraceus subsp. polyanthos

Rafa Wonderful plant -a true pristine beauty 

[Knud]

Not many things blooming here now, so I was surprised when three Narcissus romieuxii mesatlanticus sported buds early November. We have had a mild first half of November, and relatively dry for here. Just over a week ago the first flower opened a beautiful creamy white from quite yellow buds (picture 1). It grew whiter by the day, and the stamens longer. Within a week it was joined by the other two, - and three Atlantic lows! I see there has been some discussion on hardiness of this species. Our zone 8 garden will not tax them unduly in that respect, but they certainly are tough. In the twelve or so days since the first one opened we have have had about 150 mm (6 inches) of rain, gale force winds and hail. They objected to the hail (picture 2), but are still standing tall four days after the hail shower.

My plants came from the SRGC, as bulblets from the Bulb Group at the Glasgow Discussion weekend 2007. What wonderful memories they brought back.

[Maggi Young]

Greetings, Knud! How good it is to see you posting here. It is too long since  you visited us... .you must come over again soon!
What a delight these narcissus are as the year gets colder and darker.

[Knud]

Thank you, Maggi, for friendly greetings. Now that the first post is down, more will come. I hope to make it over to next years Discussion weekend. Another first bloomer in our garden this year also originated at a discussion weekend, 2003 in Elgin. Not a narcissus, but still exciting, a now football-sized Daphne retusa (or should that be D. tangutica Retusa Group?).

[Lesley Cox]

Welcome to the Forum Knud. I wonder are you Forum member No. 1001? 

Anthony I too was going to use the word "pristine" to describe Rafa's Narcissus flowers. Made me think of the "Coronet Among the Weeds." But it is the weeds (absolute jewels every one) which are flowering among the man-made weeds, don't you think. Sorry, that's a terribly mixed metaphor but you know what I mean, I'm sure.