Crocus January 2010

[Luc Gilgemyn]

I'm with Armin on Simons ssp atticus.

Luc, yours with the pjc label may be a hybrid with C veluchensis.  There are mountains where this and C sieberi ssp sublimis overlap where there are supposed hybrids.  These have flowers often shaped like C veluchensis but with a yellow/ish throat.  I cannot recall which mountain this occurs on (?Olympus) but similar plants of this origin have been exhibited at AGS shows.

Going back to my C. aff. sieberi (pix in reply 66) R&R Wallis replied to my query that they have been growing this Crocus for over 30 year and have no idea where it was originally collected by Paul Christian.  However they believe it is mentioned in B. Mathew's Crocus bible from which they kindly sent me following quote (page 65)

"
Before the next subspecies, mention must be made of a Crocus which grows in the N. Peloponnese but which does not agree in its characters or habitat with subsp. sublimis.  In 1966 I collected some corms of a Crocus (Mathew 5071) near Langadia which I took to be C. cancellatus because of their coarsely netted corm tunics and narrow leaves.  However in the following year both the autumnal C. cancellatus and a spring-flowering one appeared in the batch of corms, the latter bearing some resemblance to C. sieberi.  A further collection has been made in the same area by P.J. Christian.  This "species near sieberi" has a reticulated corm tunic, much coarser than that of C. sieberi subsp. sublimis, and very narrow erect leaves with ribs in the grooves on the underside - a character not associated with C. sieberi.  The flowers produced in spring, are lilac with a paler slightly silvery exterior to the outer segments and the pale yellow throat is pubescent.  In overall appearance it is thus different to the broad-leaved tricoloured C. sieberi variant which grows nearby in damp wooded areas; the habitats of the two are quite different, for the narrow-leaved one grows in scree-like conditions. Field studies are required before a decision can be made about this plant.
"

[Tony Willis]

Thomas

I think this subject has been discussed endlessly and I do not think common ground will be found. There are those who like to split them up and those who do not,and I am happy to go with that.

We have an area where a lot of the inhabitants have webbed feet. On the basis that crocus and other plants are being divided on such minor details does this make them a sub species of the human race or are they just inbred because travelling used to be difficult?


I collected many years a go a Crocus biflorus near Feithye and it was sent via a holder of a national collection to a most eminent expert on the genus who said that it was ssp pulchricolor. When this was queried because of course that ssp does not grow there he said 'well they just vary don't they'.

I attach a picture of one from Ulu Dag and one from near Feithye. I realise these are only phtographs but in fact the corm tunics are also similar.


We each pursue our interest in our own way and perhaps this makes us different ssp.

[Sinchets]

Tony, I suppose we can assume the identity of this eminent expert, and also assume that maybe he was peeved that you had found something he did not know about.
Your finding has so many potential explanations: It may be shown to have extended the range of C.b.pulchricolor; or show that it's current range has contracted from a more extent one; or it could be a new form that resembles pulchricolor in too many ways to allow it to be keyed out in any other way. Does it come true from seed?
All of this emphasises how important it is to know the origins of a plant- yours could be a new floristic finding or a rogue finding which leads me onto..
Well done, Luc. A great piece of detective work. Does this apply to your plant or to mine? Seems strange they suggested more field studies needing doing back in 1966. I wonder if anyone ever went back

[Tony Willis]

Simon

no you cannot guess and I would say he is a delightful person so no problem there. The reason I am not saying is because the information came back second hand and therefore I do not want to attribute something which may not have been repeated accurately.

I collected the seed in 1988 and have been back to the same area many more times. On the second visit which of course was to try and obtain more of this rare find the whole area had been cleared and turned into a eucalyptus plantation.

I have never produced seed and continue with the original few corms.

[Sinchets]

 
Well, then indeed we will never know, and some of us- the ones who want to know, as well as grow- will be left wondering if the curent distribution of C.biflorus subspecies has as much to with random acts of habitat destruction- both contempory and historical- as it does with evolution and natural selection  

[Luc Gilgemyn]

Well done, Luc. A great piece of detective work. Does this apply to your plant or to mine? Seems strange they suggested more field studies needing doing back in 1966. I wonder if anyone ever went back

This is info about my aff. sieberi Simon. 

[Sinchets]

Are you open to offers of a timeshare on the information?

[Luc Gilgemyn]

 

[Sinchets]

I just want a background/ heritage for my plant

[Alex]

To lower the tone of this highbrow taxonomic discussion...

The promise iof things to come (C. gargaricus ssp. gargaricus); I prefer this stage to the actual flowers in some ways!

Crocus cvijicii, second corm about to flower

Crocus adanensis

I have a lot of C. baytopiorum too but you're not seeing those, since the flowers are so etiolated they're sprawled horizontally! I wonder why some like cvijicii seem to resist this (glad they do).

Finally, a question: Does C. gargaricus ssp. gargaricus produce any stolons at all, like ssp. herbertii does, or is it entirely stolon-free? This pot of ssp. gargaricus (allegedly) produces the odd stolon but nothing like as many as my true herbertii.

Cheers!

[Tony Willis]

Alex you are so far ahead of me. My Crocus gargaricus and cvicii are not showing through the grit yet. On the otherhand I have a number of chrysanthus and cyprius moving into flower.

As to the gargaricus I have never seen stolons on ssp gargaricus but have occasionally seen them on ssp herbertii. I think the growing conditions in the wild where I have found them are very different, with ssp herbertii often growing in standing water whereas ssp gargaricus was in much drier conditions. As to whether this affects there growth mechanisms I cannot tell.

[Alex]

Thanks, Tony - by the way, all 4 of the C. nerimaniae seeds you sent me are now up!

Cheers,

Alex

[Tony Willis]

Alex

thats good. I saw I had an odd one germinating before the snow came and so I have kept them frost free.The reasoning behind this was I expect my crocus to germinate in the spring and I was worried the cold might cause them to either damp of or they just die for not being hardy enough.

I am amazed how advanced you are having seen the frit on the other thread. It looks stunning and not one I have seen in the flesh

[tonyg]

I think this subject has been discussed endlessly and I do not think common ground will be found. There are those who like to split them up and those who do not,and I am happy to go with that.

Re the Crocus biflorus ssps naming debate.  I think that Tony, you have hit upon the answer with your naming stratgey for forum photos.  ie.  They are all C biflorus + name of the place they were found!  As many will know I am by nature a lumper rather than a splitter but without different names how do we label them as individuals or types? 
But then how do we name the plants we raise in cultivation   (and how many of these are hybrids?)  It is a mire whichever way you approach it. 
I may just need webbed feet to avoid getting stuck in the mud
At least they are not all white with green markings

[Lvandelft]

Regarding C. biflorus ssp. punctatus discussion:

Does anybody have good pictures of C. alatavicus (i.e.top view to see style and anthers) for comparison?

I did not found a good one. It is just to satisfy my interest.

Sjaak de Groot (bulb specialist) asked me to send the following comments about Crocus alatavicus with some pictures:

After reading Armin's question, I looked through my pictures and found a very interesting fact, which I didn't notice before.
I saw that the Crocus alatavicus from Tien-Shan have white pistils, which is the same on a plant ex. J. Ruksans from the area of Chimgan, Uzbekistan.
 
Some years ago we found near Taldi-Goran in the foothills of the Dzjungarian Ala-Tau some Cr. alatavicus where flowering was nearly over and collected a few corms.
This place is a lot more north than Tien-Shan.
These types have an orange pistiland totally different from the Tie-Shan types, which grow on a much higher altitude.
In the Crocus book of Brian Mattew is a picture of Crocus alatavicus with yellow pistils.
Therefore is my conclusion that under the name Crocus alatavicus there are more than only one form.

Cr. alatavicus ex Dzjungarian Ala-Tau                               
Crocus alatavicus Chimgan ex J. Ruksans                             
Crocus alatavicus Dzjungarian Ala-Tau 950 mtr                     
Crocus alatavicus Geish plateau 2800 mtr above Almaty