Lilium 2010

[ichristie]

Hi all, I have read all these posts about Lilium mackliniae with great interest as I grow these very well here at Kirriemuir. I am posting some pictures of most of this group and add a special recent collection from Peter Cox which is white and flowers in May. I have shown this at SRGC show could this be a new species or again a colour variant?, I also add a picture of my own cross so look forward to any further comments, cheers Ian the Christie kind.

[Diane Clement]

As far as I know both the International Code of Botanical Nomenclature (ICBN) and the International Code of Nomenclature of Cultivated Plants (ICNCP) define a hybrid only as a cross between 2 species. Geographically Mt Javpo in Nagaland and the Ukhrul district of Manipur (where the holotype comes from) are not that far apart so it would be very likely the old light pink and the new dark pink are colour variants.

So "Tantallon" would be a cross between 2 colour variants of the same species and only if distinct enough could be given the cultivar status with that name. Lilium x "Tantallon" therefore would certainly be incorrect and I even doubt an intermediate colourform is distinct enough to be granted a cultivar status. 

Am I right in thinking that all? most? of L mackliniae in cultivation prior to 2000 derives from the original Kingdom Ward introduction from Manipur??  So the pale pink/white form is the form that everyone knows and thinks of as the typical form.  The recent Cox introductions from a different area are just bringing some different colour forms into cultivation, and maybe some other different characters such as early flowering.  Probably none are hybrids, just natural variants that we haven't previously seen.  Although I am interested to hear that the Taylors regard their form as more vigorous.  Sounds like it's worth a try here, where the usual form is not an easy plant and gives in to virus very quickly, sad as it's one of my favourite plants.

[Pascal B]

Diane, it seems that way. The story with L. mackliniae reminds me a bit of Arisaema candidissimum where only the Forrest introductions were grown for years until Chen Yi started exporting and we suddenly got different pinks and whites in the new clones. Wouldn't be the first time growers are unable to place new varieties that are introduced after years of growing just one form and thinking that is the "typical" species. Would be interesting to know the history behind the Kingdon Ward introduction of mackliniae. Was it a seedlot? Was it a bulb? Several bulbs? Anybody knows this?

@Ian, I have no knowledge of Lilium taxonomy but the habit of the white flowering plant certainly looks different to the other mackliniae's you show. Is that a wild introduction from Cox too?

[Regelian]

Are there two different hybrids?  (I suppose they are not technically hybrids, just crosses of colour forms within the species). 

Diane,

a hybrid is the offspring of any two taxon.  A taxon is a described entity, which would include colour forms, sub-species, varieties, etc., as long as they are a defined entity.  Random crossing of seedlings within the same taxon are not considered hybrids.  Therefore F2 generation seedlings are not hybrids in and of themselves, although they may actually represent a hybrid.  Confusing, isn't it!

Jamie

[ichristie]

Hi, yes the white form I have is grown from bulbs given to me by Peter Cox, you can see differences between the origonal form and the dark form. The new white form is much earlier flowering but it is to soon to say what will happen next year as I grew the bulbs under cover until they flowered. I have spoken to Peter Cox who grows it outside and It flowers early such a beautiful form, will keep you posted next year also, cheers Ian the Christie kind.

[Pascal B]

Jamie,

I am not sure the very wide description of taxa can be applied to this. I will ask a friend of mine when he is back from holiday how that definition exactly works because he was contributor to the latest International Code of Nomenclature of Cultivated Plants. Even then, it all depends on the taxonomist if he/she wants to recognise a colourform as an infraspecific taxon. Personally I think "f. alba" or "f. rosea" and the like are unnecessary splitting, I rather see them registered as cultivars.

[Pascal B]

Hi, yes the white form I have is grown from bulbs given to me by Peter Cox, you can see differences between the origonal form and the dark form. The new white form is much earlier flowering but it is to soon to say what will happen next year as I grew the bulbs under cover until they flowered. I have spoken to Peter Cox who grows it outside and It flowers early such a beautiful form, will keep you posted next year also, cheers Ian the Christie kind.

But is it of wild origin? And where from then?

[Diane Clement]

  Are there two different hybrids?  (I suppose they are not technically hybrids, just crosses of colour forms within the species). 

Diane,

a hybrid is the offspring of any two taxon.  A taxon is a described entity, which would include colour forms, sub-species, varieties, etc., as long as they are a defined entity.  Random crossing of seedlings within the same taxon are not considered hybrids.  Therefore F2 generation seedlings are not hybrids in and of themselves, although they may actually represent a hybrid.  Confusing, isn't it! 

Sorry, I was just using the word in the way it had been used before in the thread, to try and avoid confusion!  I do understand they are not hybrids.  What I would really like to know is whether the Taylors have two different forms/cultivars, or whether the one they call "Tantallon" is the same as the one derived from the "new" Nagaland form crossed with the "old" Manipur form.  I think only they can alnswer that one, perhaps via Liz, unless Ian knows.

[Roma]

some lilies flowering in pots in June.

Lilium albanicum
Lilium oxypetalum insigne
Lilium ledebourii

[Regelian]

  Are there two different hybrids?  (I suppose they are not technically hybrids, just crosses of colour forms within the species). 

Diane,

a hybrid is the offspring of any two taxon.  A taxon is a described entity, which would include colour forms, sub-species, varieties, etc., as long as they are a defined entity.  Random crossing of seedlings within the same taxon are not considered hybrids.  Therefore F2 generation seedlings are not hybrids in and of themselves, although they may actually represent a hybrid.  Confusing, isn't it! 

Sorry, I was just using the word in the way it had been used before in the thread, to try and avoid confusion!  I do understand they are not hybrids.  What I would really like to know is whether the Taylors have two different forms/cultivars, or whether the one they call "Tantallon" is the same as the one derived from the "new" Nagaland form crossed with the "old" Manipur form.  I think only they can alnswer that one, perhaps via Liz, unless Ian knows.

Diane,

that was not a critque on my part (read: being a smart ass  ), as, from what has so far been described, they seem to be taxon, in that they have been collected and IDed/named.  A description need not be in latin to be valid, it simply need to be published; in a catalogue, on the internet, etc.  If Tantallon, Manipur and Nagaland are names used to identify specific entities, then they are taxon and offspring between them are hybrids, that belong to the same species.

I am unclear as to the status of these lilies.  As you said, only 'they' can answer the question.  In any case, beautiful flowers.

[Roma]

I have Lilium martagon allover the garden from self sown seedlings.  I started off with album and cattaniae grown from seed and did not want any pinks but now have them in all shades including a very nice spotty one.Many are in places where I do not want them, but they grow between stones at the edges of borders and up through other plants where they will be very difficult to remove if I ever get round to it.  The strong winds on Monday left many leaning, Two bent halfway up the stem and two broken at ground level.

Lilium martagon

[bulborum]

WOW

Roland

[ichristie]

Hi Pascal B, yes the Lilium mackliniae white was wild collected and Peter Cox has given me this name Caremati which is either a region or a mountain in Nagaland and after I put the dark form to Joint Rock it was named Naga pink. I am sure that these forms deserve individual names to recognise just how different they are and also for those who wish to buy them it is important as they will select whatever they like best. One other think is also important the seed raised bulbs from each variation may well vary as cross pollination will occur what then will we have??. The white form which flowers in May way before any others will we hope remain true to type but then again who knows and no plants in my garden have read any books or pay attention to International codes I jsut love them for what they are, cheers Ian the Christie kind.

[Hakone]

Hello Maggi,
I grow Lilium since two years

[Liz Mills]

Diane
The Taylors said that their "Tantallon" was a cross between the original L mackliniae that they'd grown for years (presumably the 'Manipur' form) and the dark pink form from Nagaland.  Does this help?
Liz