Seed exchange: ? listing hybrids ?

[Diane Whitehead]

I chose lots of Erythroniums from this year's exchange, and
have a question about two of the hybrids, and an explanation
about one I donated.

First, mine. Many years ago I planted a pink Erythronium from
an area beside a road.  White E. oregonum was growing up in
the woods and dark pink E. revolutum was growing down along
a stream.  That pink plant has sowed itself into a patch of
hundreds, all pink except for one white one, which alerted me
to the hybrid nature of my original plant.

The two hybrids I received are labelled
citrinum x oregonum
californicum x multiscapoideum

I'd like to know if these seeds represent a first generation hybrid -
in other words, the donor made the cross - or are they from a
hybrid swarm like my donated seeds.

[Maggi Young]

Interesting question, Diane.  I see that your cross is presented in the seedlist text in the same way as the other two.
It may be that the donor did not specify the origin of the cross as being intentional or not.
I will pass your query on to Stuart Pawley to see if he might shed some light on the matter.

[David Shaw]

Diana raises an interesting point for me with her referral to crosses in the seed exchange. If the donor has purchased a plant as ****** x ******* should the seed from this plant be put in the exchange as a cross or as just sp.?
For example, I have bought corms of Cyclamen x hildebrandii and of C. x wellensiekii  and also seed from the exchange under the same names. I have no knowledge of the  history of either the corms or the seed. If I manage to seed any of these four subjects (and manage to confirm correct naming?) should I put the seed into the exchange under these names? Please just take these Cyclamen names as being an example. As far as I know they might be rock solid reliable crosses but I am questioning the general principle of this.

[Maggi Young]

David, I see that there is no clear direction on this matter given in the Seedlist.

My own inclination in such matters would be to label the seed as Bloggsia hyb.

Perhaps it would be an idea to email Stuart Pawley for his opinion since he is the one who makes the list ..... gsp.srgc AT tesco.net  ( exchanging the gaps and AT for @, of course!)

[ashley]

Another source of potential confusion is that donations from forms (Bloggsia bloggsia ex 'Maggi's Favourite') may sometimes appear on the list without the 'ex', implying that the form will come true from seed

I really don't envy Stuart, Diane and others this very arduous job.  However it might help both exchange managers and the rest of us to have policy on each of these issues stated explicitly.

[Maggi Young]

Stuart does include in the list notes that the "ex" must be assumed in such cases, Ashley.
I agree that fuller guidelines are welcome and of course these are points that will be passed to our Seed Ex Gang.

[ashley]

  My apologies to Stuart; he does indeed. 
So 'ex' is reserved for next-generation seed from collections.

[Maggi Young]

I have received this reply from Stuart :

"The answer for 1520 was in the Notes, Maggi, page 34 - I know not
everyone reads them! Donor Art Guppy says these are from a natural
hybrid swarm in California, though I assume the seed is from his
garden; he says quite clearly which Erythronium seeds he sent are
wild collected - 4118 & 4119.
1522 has no such information, so I assume
it is from a garden plant/s, different donor."

It is sometimes tricky to sort out the actual seedlist information in the seedlist notes, that I do know!
The note Stuart refers to says :
 
Proverbial Erythronia
Solomon by his proverbs (6.6) would have us all as sluggards, but here's one of us with considered wisdom. Art Guppy tells us that many an Erythroniumpersuades ants to disperse its seeds, but not so for the natural Californian hybrid swarm yielding no. 1520 he offers us this year. Some more information is available in his article in the NARGS' journal last year. He also sends a dwarf form of the popular E. grandiflorum which would be a perfect alpine garden plant - if it were a little easier to  grow!"

[Tony Willis]

How to label is an interesting question and I was faced with this when posting a picture on the crocus thread.

I have a new hybrid which I pictured which is fertile which was produced from crossing (Crocus biflorus pulchricolor x Crocus  chrysanthus) with (Crocus biflorus pulchricolor x Crocus  chrysanthus) What do I label any resulting seed from this plant and as it is not self fertile it will need to be fertilised by one of the species or the hybrid?

[Lesley Cox]

In that case Tony, I'd be inclined to label any seed as ex (Crocus biflorus pulchricolor x C. chrysanthus) x (either) the species or the hybrid. Then you could add a note to the effect that further information was available at.......

I feel that ALL seed listed under cultivar names should have the "ex" in front of the name.

[cohan]

i agree with lesley, that little 'ex' is crucial, and should i think be applied to any garden seed that is not produced by controlled pollination, and even then should probably be used for seed from plants that were from wild collected sources but now exposed to garden conditions..

[Maggi Young]

Stuart does include in the list notes that the "ex" must be assumed in cases of seed from open polinated crosses and all cultivars.

[Lesley Cox]

I don't think the "assumed" is enough as the vast majority of people expect to get what the list says, i.e. they ASSUME that Aquilegia 'Nora Barlow' will give them plants identical to that form but the seed will give a wide variety of plants if it is from a garden source (as most seed list items must be) unless it has been selectively and consistently taken from sources which line breed for strains.

[Maggi Young]

I am inclined to agree, Lesley 

[Diane Whitehead]

This discussion has expanded beyond my narrow question.
Perhaps the "Erythronium" should be dropped from the Subject
line, but I don't know how to do that, even though I started it.

Unfortunately, Lesley is quite right.  We have club and charity
plant sales here. Even very good gardeners sell seedling plants
with cultivar names.  When I call them on it, they don't back down. 
They are sure they are right.