Seed exchange: ? listing hybrids ?

[Rodger Whitlock]

There seems to be a misunderstanding sniffing around the edges of this discussion. Not all cultivars are clones. Some cultivars are seed raised. This is most common among annual flowers and vegetables, but there's no reason it can't also be true of other types of plants.

Indeed, somewhere I was reading about apple cultivars and was surprised to read that in "the old days", apples were grown as seed strains that came true, for the most part.

To muddy the waters, I'm pretty sure that some ancient cultivars weren't described as being clonal or not. One has to remember that Liberty Hyde Bailey only introduced the words "clon" (now clone) and cultivar about a hundred years ago. Before then, what we now think of as cultivars were given Latinate pseudo-botanical names. Thus an 'Albiflora' could simply be any white-flowered version of a given plant, not a specific clone.

[Diane Clement]

I don't think the "assumed" is enough as the vast majority of people expect to get what the list says, i.e. they ASSUME that Aquilegia 'Nora Barlow' will give them plants identical to that form but the seed will give a wide variety of plants if it is from a garden source (as most seed list items must be) unless it has been selectively and consistently taken from sources which line breed for strains.  

And it's another impossible one to police or resolve.  Using similar wording to the SRGC, the AGS list, states that:  "Members are reminded that named cultivars and hybrids cannot be relied upon to come true, and plants raised from seed from cultivars should not be labelled with the names of those cultivars."  

Also, in agreement with Rodger's points, not all cultivars are clones, also some modern names that look like cultivar names are not clones.  

All seed is "ex".  Cyclamen sent in to an exchange, for example, are all seed raised and there is a range of cultivar names which may or may not breed true to a certain percentage.  Or they may be open pollinated and anything may happen.    

I don't like listing a seed as just Bloggsia hyb or Bloggsia sp and I will only do that if I have no other information.  Hardly anyone is going to request Bloggsia sp when there are several thousand other names on the list to choose, unless, of course, you are trying to grow the national collection of Bloggsia.  So if given anyother information about colour, provenance, parentage etc, it will be listed in addition to sp.  Bloggsia sp ex JCA will get chosen whereas Bloggsia sp will not, as people assume that anything sp is not desirable (probably in the majority of cases, correctly).  Meconopsis sp will not get chosen (as people assume its M cambrica), Meconopsis sp blue will get chosen.  

The cyclamen hybrid issue is a different story.  Cyclamen hybrids do produce viable seed and the offspring is variable.  I have many times raised C x wellensiekii from seed and they are all different, a sort of spectrum between the two parents.  If a plant is listed as Cyclamen x wellensiekii on a seed list, then it is possible someone has recreated the cross and the seed is from one of the parents (Cc cyprium or libanoticum in this case) but I think this is unlikely and would be stated, and usually the seed has been collected from a plant of Cyclamen x wellensiekii.  In this case, the resulting plants will be C x wellensiekii and as such, will exhibit the full range of variation existing in the hybrid.  

One other point, some donors send in seed from garden plants labelled as Something sp.  Depending on the genus (and if it is something that rarely exists in gardens as a pure sp), I might change this on the list to Something hyb.  For example Aquilegia sp I will often change to Aquilegia hyb if I am given no other information, my reasoning being that if it was more interesting, the donor would most likely have given further information (e.g. Aquilegia yellow fls or Aquilegia ex Colorado, or even just Aquilegia ex WC).    

Diane W, re the Erythronium hybrid - we had different donations from Arthur Guppy (but with similar stories of introgression in a wild population of Fritillaria), Arthur always gives quite a lot of very interesting information, which we are not able to include in the list.  I am sure if you contacted him directly (he's not so far from you??) he would be able to give you more information.

[Diane Whitehead]

I wonder about seed listed with an 'ex'.  How many generations
away is it from the original?  With hybrids, generations are
listed:  F1, F2, etc, though never in seed exchange lists.

I have a species grown from wild-collected seed.  I keep it
isolated, or (less likely) I hand-pollinate it and send in its seed
to an exchange labelled "ex wild collected from X Mtn peak".
When the recipient sends in the seeds from a plant grown from
my seed, what should the label read?

With named cultivars, if I see a listing that says " ex 'Wonderful' "
I assume it means the seeds are from a seedling of 'Wonderful',
so already a generation removed.  That is not necessarily so,
though.

I tried to get around the problem of having people assume seedlings
could carry their mother's name by just writing descriptions instead
of the name.  This didn't work too well.

 I have a named cultivar that produces really good seedlings.
I sent a photo of the cv and some of its seedlings to the Forum
and promised to send seed to the exchange. I labelled it with a description.
 It was tossed in with who knows how many others as "hybrids",
so I mailed seeds directly to the members who had hoped to get it
from the exchange. The next year I sent the seeds with the cultivar
name of the parent and it was listed separately.

[johnw]

With named cultivars, if I see a listing that says " ex 'Wonderful' "
I assume it means the seeds are from a seedling of 'Wonderful',
so already a generation removed.

Having written the rhodo seedlist locally for years, "ex 'Wonderful' " to me would be open-pollinated 'Wonderful' and I would list it as 'Wonderful' o.p.  On the other hand I would probably write the plant label as (ex 'Wonderful'), only because the ex would catch my eye first and I would be less likely to grab the plant in haste as a 'Wonderful'.

Seeds from a seedling of 'Wonderful' I'd write as ['Wonderful' open-pollinated seedling] o.p.  It can get very tedious for the seed manager (this is how I lost my hair).

It was surprising how many donors used F2 etc. loosely.  I got seeds as F2 and F3 that were clearly open-pollinated.  To me 'Wonderful' F2 is either 'Wonderful' selfed or ['Wonderful' x a of it sister seedling].  

It was great to get comments on a donation like Diane's.

Hellebores and Rhodos were the worst cases of ex and F abuse.

johnw

[ViggoU]

This is the way I think, when I donate seeds.
When I receive seeds from wild collections, I sow them and, and when I collect seeds from these plants I label those like ex CC-xxxx (if that was from Chris Chadwell).
If I have sown my own seeds from that ex CC-xxxxx and collected them for distribution, I would not mention the original collection number at all, if this was an common plant.
For instance, let us think that Chris collected seeds of Meconopsos horridula (what he often does) the seeds of his collection is CC-xxxx Meconopsis horridula. When I collect and send seed of this first generation seeds to a seed-exchange I label it as Meconopsis horridula ex CC-xxxx. The person who receive this seeds can label her/his plants with this name, but not distribute it further. From second generation after wild collection the collection-numer is of no (or little) value due to normal garden normal hybridisation. And by the way, I do never use the "ex" if I collect seeds of a Primula who is supposed to have hybridiced with another in the garden, in such circumstances, it will be just an "hybrid of uncertain origin".
I hope to get a lot of comments now

[johnw]

ViggoU - I would have listed your Meconopsis seed as say (Meconopsis horridula ex Chris Chadwell #8333) F2 if you had no other Meconopsis in the garden, meaning it was either selfed or sibbed.  If you had other Meconopsis in the garden including other horridulas then (Meconopsis horridula ex Chris Chadwell #8333) o.p.   Agreed?

I certainly agree that something like ['Wonderful' open-pollinated seedling] o.p. means very little and should be simply be "garden hybrid".  'Wonderful' F2, F3 etc is a different matter.

johnw

[Lesley Cox]

Oh Golly! Obviously the "ex" or other apparently helpful letters are pretty much useless, in a seed exchange, as from comments above, it seems just about everyone has a different take on meanings and interpretations. Likewise, the seed lists would be tomes long if all possible and relevant information were to be included, so it seems as if we're stuck with the cultivar or hort names, regardless of true origin and provenence. As always I suppose, a case of Caveat Emptor.

[Diane Whitehead]

 I really like chatty catalogues that offer not just a description,
but that retell the history and extoll the virtues of the plants.  Of
course, it's usually expensive seed that merits  such an extravagant
catalogue - it reminds me of the literary menus of expensive
restaurants.

We don't need such descriptions for most of the seeds offered in
an exchange - Google Images can probably offer enough photos
to help us choose.

However, anything out of the ordinary could benefit from some
publicity.

How about a dedicated discussion thread titled "what I'm sending to
the seedex 2010".  Except, no discussion, no chitchat, or it will, as
Lesley wrote, become unwieldy.  A photo, a comment or two about
the plant ("this selection of the usually ungrowable plant from the
summit of Mt. Celestial thrives at sea-level on a foggy island").

The photos could be posted throughout the season, while the plants
are still in flower, and the photo could be removed if there is a crop
failure.

Of course, there could be a danger of some members trying to circumvent
the exchange (Private message:  Psst!  I'll offer Xx and Yy if you'll send
me some of that seed")

[Lesley Cox]

I think this is a good idea Diane and if I had enough of it, I'd start it with the white form of Gentiana verna, collected recently. But after sending some already promised privately, there's about enough for 2 or 3 others, if anyone would like it. If I leave it to next year's lists it will be a year old so better to send it to someone now.