Paeonia 2010

[Hans J]

Hi Lukas

I have read in your former posting that :
"P. veitchii ssp. altaica (ex. beresowskii) (has larger flowers and a taller habit, 4-5 carpels, altai mountains)"

I dont understand this synonym - P.beresowski comes not from Altai Mts. !
After my informations has M.Beresowski found this plants (1894 )in Sichuan ( Sungpan region )

P.altaica grows in the same area ( Altai) like P.sinjangensis

[Olga Bondareva]

Hans
Yes it is very distributed in nature but not well in gardens. I had been looking for it for 2 years before I found it. I have true P. anomala - it differs.   Oakwood  think it is P. hybrida (species).  

[Hans J]

Olga

It is always difficould to say from pics .....
In other hand I have seen pics of P.anomala which look exactly like your plant

I think we must understand that this plants ( P.anomala ) has such a big distribution ...so they shure not uniform in all population

I can say nothing to P.hybrida - never seen in nature

[Kimjy]

Kimjy thank you very much! But it is not red and it is not little.   It is about 135 sm high. Sorry I didn't said it before. I also have P. tenuifolia - it is very different. This unknown peony looks closer to P. anomala.

Not sure on that one then, Olga .. the camera can be very misleading !! at 1.35m that must be a very beautiful sight indeed - I expect it really likes your climate. P. anomala seems to have been used for plants which are now classified differently, such as veitchii, and it is all a bit confusing I must admit .. the closest hybrid to this I know which is meant to have been around in cultivation since 19th Century is 'Smouthii' - thought to be a "P. anomala" hybrid and can easily reach 1m+. So could be this or something similar ?

[Kimjy]

I'm not so shure that P. 'Little Red Gem' so much P.tenuifolia blood .....but it is really a nice plant
This is what I found ithe web :

LITTLE RED GEM (David Reath, Vulcan, Michigan), March 1988. Hybrid, first bloomed 1980. Seedling #G-9. Parentage Gwenda F2 x self. A new rock garden peony, a single light red; blooms very early with tenuifolia season. 12-18" in height, fine cut foliage, dwarf, mound type, blooms above dwarf plants. Slender strong stems. Bulletin #266.


To P.'Picotee'
It is difficould with the crosses from Saunders - I have read he used plants for his crosses which he has received under this names ....but it is not shure that this the true species or hybrids or wrong named plants ....
Anyway - he made a lot of wonderful crosses and I'm a big fan of his plants

Thanks Hans. Little Red Gem is indeed meant to be a self of Gwenda (an F2), which in turn was Saunders 14079. Gwenda was  2nd generation (reciprocal) cross Tenuifolia x Mlokosewitschii, so there seems only 2 species in the background of LRG. The tenuifolia characteristics show much more clearly in this hybrid but it's basically a result of selective interbreeding between tenuifolia & mloko.

Re picotee it's always difficult with the early crosses though Saunders was much better than many. Rather like great paintings it would have been good to know more about the original provenance of his mother plants. I guess even if the plants used in the cross were as listed  I think the 'corsica' may also be called P. mascula subsp. russoi. Macrophylla also now probably P. daurica var. Macrophylla rather than P. Wittmaniana var Macrophylla. Plants with the registered leaf characteristics of P. ? Macrophylla seem pretty uncommon whichever way !  I agree Saunders introduced many beautiful plants - If you know of anyone who has successfully propogated T.P. 'Coronal' recently please let me know .. I am still trying to get hold of it after 4 years' global search. it is only 30" tall after several years (great focal point in a rock garden ?) and extremely difficult to graft successfully. Also looking for its child (Calypso F2 - Daphnis 1974) for possible future breeding.

[Hans J]

Kimjy

Yes - I know the story of Gwenda ....

In the book from Riviere is written that Saunders has importet his species from Europe and in this time was travel not so easy ....so we dont know what is happend.
After my informations flowers P.'Little Red Gem' 2 weeks later than P.tenuifolia .....

To your search - You could ask several people ....I will give you some ideas


Good Luck
Hans

[Kimjy]

Kimjy

In the book from Riviere is written that Saunders has importet his species from Europe and in this time was travel not so easy ....so we dont know what is happend.

To your search - You could ask :

in Germany :
Irmtraud Rieck

Thanks Hans - I have not read the Riviere book yet so will get a copy and should make interesting reading. I have not been able to find a contact for Imtraud Rieck - if you are able to point me in the right direction (my e-mail is logged) that would be very helpful. I am in contact with the others but sadly no luck as yet with the "wish list" !

[Hans J]

Kimjy

I have written you a PM

Hans

[Kimjy]

Kimjy

I have written you a PM

Hans

Thanks a lot Hans.

[Lukas H]

Dear Hans,

My nomenclatur and infos about the anomala complex are out of Halda's book the genus Paeonia.

And there is P. veitchii var. altaica with the synonym P. beresowskii.

In the metioned Post, there are severel Plants of the anomala complex. But the naming is always diffucult, because there are so many opinions...

There should someone bring light to this mess.

But I am not a friend of the theory that if a plant has 150 except of the normal 100 hairs on a carpel to give this plant a specific rank...

You could also argue, that all is one species including all these "species" like singjiangensis, hybrida, intermedia, altaica, beresowskii, anomala, veitchii, woodwardii and severel others.

I have only seen plants of beresowskii in culture, but they are higher than other plants of this complex, but thei are still close to veitchii and anomala.

In the end I can say that however you want to label your plant this complex has very beautiful plants and they deserve our attention! :-)

I grow about seven plants of this complex and they are all very lovely in their own way.

Greetings

[Olga Bondareva]

Kimjy, Hans
Thank you!
There was P. amomala selection  in times of Soviet Union. Probably it could be one of that sorts.

[Hans J]

Hi Lukas ,

I dont agree with Halda .....and I'm not a big fan of him !!!

I have seen and grown seedlings from him - they are mostly missnamed !
p.e. : I have grown from him P.lactiflora w.c.seeds .....this plant has flowered after some years and it was a silly double white flowering P.lactiflora .....it was a waste of time and room to rise this plants and it is not fair from him to sell such seeds .

Hans

[Hans J]

Olga ,

I had yesterday a long phone call about your plant with a other german plant friend ....we are still puzzling ...

I have also asked him about P.x smouthii and he told me it is not so high as P.tenuifolia

Anyway - your plant is beautiful 
Hans

[Lesley Cox]

This is a picture of 'Early Bird' taken at Binny Plants in Scotland last year.  I would have said it is different to the Wisley plant.....

The foliage n this one is the same as on mine. I hope it will flower this coming spring so will be able to compare.

[Lesley Cox]

'Little Red Gem' is wonderful. We have a couple of good paeony nuseries locally which I've not visited but I'll be setting that right in the spring. Sharon and Bob, your 'Early Bird' has super flowers. I hope mine is like that rather than the other. And I love yours Olga, a brilliant plant both in flower and foliage.