Stagonospora infection - collected threads

[Paddy Tobin]

Emma,

I'm going along the same lines this year - any newly planted bulbs or disturbed clumps are going to have an Armillitox drench.

I've had quite a few losses this year and am very despondent about it, losses of plants from friends are especially disappointing. 

Paddy

[David Quinton]

Jennie,

Carbendazim is used by groundsmen to kill worms on golf courses. They use it primarily on the greens so that the surface isn't ruined by worm casts. I guess that the same will apply to worms in the garden. That's one of the advantages of growing in lattice pots in that you can apply the drench with the pot out of the ground and re-plant once the liquid has finished draining out. I know that we'd all like to garden organically but there is a balance to be struck. If you are happy to lose expensive snowdrops to stagnospora and have very deep pockets then the organic way is OK. If not, then it's best to find a treatment that works but is not detrimental to the wild life. Treating pots out of the ground is, I believe, a good compromise. It's not perhaps the easiest one because as the collection grows then so will the workload.

I hope that the losses and infections stop. It is best to get in to a regular routine of inspection so that anything that looks ill can be dealt with early. Now you know what to look for, next season should be better.

Cheers,
David

[GoodGrief]

Just read that they use Citrox to combat MRSA and bird flu... that's some product!!

http://www.citrox.net/news.php?id=101

And a whole host of other things:-

http://www.citrox.net/aboutus.php?id=63

[ChrisD]

I may be able to provide a little info on Citrox as I had some preliminary discussions with a company supplying it about a year ago. This was for a work project where we were looking at alternative disinfectants. Citrox is a natural product, it is an extract of a small inedible orange, and there is good evidence of antibacterial and antifungal activity. It also seems to be completely safe, even to drink, it is used to wash fruit for instance. I have not done any work to substantiate these claims but some of the work presented was done by (for instance) university groups. I would be fairly sure it will do no harm to snowdrops but I guess only time will tell whether it does any good.

It appeals to my preference for gardening "organically" where ever possible.

I have some more detailed info at work, some of it highly technical, but if anybody is interested please drop me a PM and I will forward it.

Chris

Sorry I need to do this somewhat differently - the company I work for signed a non-disclosure agreement (NDA) with the company supplying Citrox. Now I cant think there would be any problem with passing on the information but if I did so I would be breaking this agreement. What I can do is have a read through the documents - as I remember there is lots of it but it is quite repetitious - and write a summary on this thread. I will try and do that at the weekend. Obviously there will be nothing about about stag, but lets see how many fungi it has been tested against.

In answer to Jennie's points - Is Citrox suitable for sterilising tools when dealing with different clumps of snowdrops? 
    We dont know it kills stag, assuming it does then yes it should be good for disinfecting garden tools. Might be best to leave them soaking in the Citrox solution.

 Is it completely safe to water into the ground? 
    My guess would be yes it is safe probably should test an earthworm or two first.

Will it clean the soil where stag infected snowdrops have been growing? 
    Probably, you may want to try it as say a 2X concentrate as a soil drench, as it will be diluted by the water in the soil.

Sorry for not replying to the PMs.

Chris

[kentish_lass]

Jennie,

Carbendazim is used by groundsmen to kill worms on golf courses. They use it primarily on the greens so that the surface isn't ruined by worm casts. I guess that the same will apply to worms in the garden. That's one of the advantages of growing in lattice pots in that you can apply the drench with the pot out of the ground and re-plant once the liquid has finished draining out. I know that we'd all like to garden organically but there is a balance to be struck. If you are happy to lose expensive snowdrops to stagnospora and have very deep pockets then the organic way is OK. If not, then it's best to find a treatment that works but is not detrimental to the wild life. Treating pots out of the ground is, I believe, a good compromise. It's not perhaps the easiest one because as the collection grows then so will the workload.

I hope that the losses and infections stop. It is best to get in to a regular routine of inspection so that anything that looks ill can be dealt with early. Now you know what to look for, next season should be better.

Cheers,
David

Thanks David.  I feel I am driving everyone nuts with all my snowdrop worries and questions - but value the great advice and guidance I have received on this forum.  I do not have deep pockets unfortunately or I would just replace everything I have lost    This year has been a steep learning curve and as you say - next season should be better.  I am sure I will soon develop a way of caring for the snowdrops with minimum damage to wildlife.  Hopefully anyone new to snowdrops will have learned much from this 'horror stories' thread.

Thankfully everything I have lost is fairly easily replaceable and I feel for those who have lost treasured gifts from friends - that is upsetting.
Jennie

[mark smyth]

Jennie I found something today that is the same as one of your snowdrops had

[kentish_lass]

Jennie I found something today that is the same as one of your snowdrops had

So it is.  What are you doing about it?  Mine was on a plicatus too though not sure that means anything?
Jennie

[mark smyth]

it looks like a tiny snail/slug has been eating

[steve owen]

Not certain that this point sits directly in the title of this thread but its a cultivation point and not worth starting a new thread for. When I lift a snowdrop clump to divide it, I've thrown out any nasties, and given the healthy ones a 24 hour bath of fungicide/disinfectant, events sometimes then delay the replanting in  lattice pots. Don't want to leave them longer  in the liquid in case it starts root rot. So I take them out, rinse the roots, let them dry (10 minutes is enough), gently comb the roots away from each other, and then temporarily "plant" them in small clay pots in a surround of wood shavings bought from a pet shop. The pot + plant is then watered with fungicide/disinfectant - excess drains straight through, leaving a moistened wood shaving "compost" in which the plant can happily be left for several days - and the roots are in tip-top condition when I have time to take the bulb out to either plant it or pack it into a cardboard tube for posting.

[ChrisD]

Sorry a little later than promised as my computer crashed at the weekend, as I was completing the first version of this post.

Citrox.

A variety of products are being sold by citrox ltd, and also citroxx biosciences ( a joint venture with citrox as one of the partners). The product for garden/greenhouse disinfection is available from marshalls seeds and on Amazon ( as well as other places). These products are, as far as I can tell, all based on an extract of an unripe inedible orange-like fruit. For those of you who would like a little more detail the active ingredients are claimed to be flavanoid molecules and flavanoid dimers/polymers with and without sugars attached. Importantly for good anti-microbial activity the product needs to be at an acidic pH and therefore various natural acids (eg citric acid) are included.

The products are non-toxic but they may have some effect on plants and soil organisms due to the low pH. They are fully biodegradable and much much better for the environment than synthetic fungicides.

In the lab they seem effective in killing a range of fungi and other microbes, fairly obviously stag has not been tested but botrytis has been killed successfully.

The recommendation would be to use a 2% (1 in 50 dilution) solution for 30 minutes or longer. A word of caution here - this data is for a "citrox BC" product and I dont know if it has the same concentration of active ingredient as the garden/greenhouse disinfectant. I dont see any problems in using a more concentrated solution or for a longer period, or both. Note the garden/greenhouse disinfectant is used at 5% and the suggestions below refer to this product

Will it work? For cleaned bulbs with any damage cut away I think it may well work. Perhaps a 24 hour soak will enable the compounds to penetrate into the bulb tissues. The only problem might be the pH, but I wouldnt expect any damage.

For sterilising tools, pots and seed trays, YES, this is the most obvious use.

For soaking pots of 'drops it may work, the concern here is that the soil will partially neutralise the acidity (a buffering effect) and may also absorb the active components. Again a 24 hours soak in 5%, or maybe try 8-10% citrox, would be my suggestion. Rinse well before replanting.

As a soil drench, this is more questionable. The same concerns as for soaking pots apply here, but much more so. Again I dont see this doing serious harm but not at all sure it will be effective.
 
Does this help at all, it may be this has just confused the situation further?

I suspect only a series of careful experiments or many years of anecdotal experience will answer this question.

Chris

[kentish_lass]

Thanks for all that info Chris - I am going to buy a bottle and give it a go.  Another weapon in my box of tricks hopefully.

I have just had a thought concerning Narcissus Fly.  In summer to deter slugs and snails & gall midge on my daylilies & Hostas I use a dilute spray of garlic which I make myself by boiling a whole garlic and straining.  I then dilute it and spray over the foliage and it does help for sure.  I am wondering if this same mix sprayed over the dying foliage and on the ground would help deter Narcissus Fly??  I guess its another $64 billion question    It could put them off the scent of the bulb......maybe.....

The smell does not last long but the bugs just do not like the taste of it

Jennie

[Alan_b]

....When I lift a snowdrop clump to divide it, I've thrown out any nasties, and given the healthy ones a 24 hour bath of fungicide/disinfectant, events sometimes then delay the replanting in  lattice pots. Don't want to leave them longer  in the liquid in case it starts root rot.

I've been using Citrox disinfectant and recently I left a group of snowdrops soaking in Citrox for around 48 hours.  This was longer than I intended but circumstances went against me.  Now three weeks later all these snowdrops in their different locations are looking miserable and flaccid.  I presume the roots have been harmed so I think I have learned that 48 hours in Citrox at room temperature is too much.

[steve owen]

Depends on the concentration you used.

[Alan_b]

Possibly.  Specifically I'm using a concentrate called Agralan Citrox P.  The instructions say dilute with 150 parts water to 1 part of the concentrate so I have been measuring out 5 ml with a syringe and adding it to 750 ml of water.

[ChrisD]

Alan - will be interesting to see what happens with these ones next year. If you had killed this years roots (for example by chopping them off) what would you expect to happen next year?

Chris