Trillium 2010

[Anthony Darby]

I think true Trillium grandiflorum 'Snowbunting' is lost. Most clones that purport to be 'Snowbunting' are selections from the clone prior to it being named. Paul Christian calls it 'Snowbunting' on the basis that it comes from that clone, even though he can't trace it back to the named clone. Blooms of Bressingham call the same clone, selected in the 1950s, " Flore Pleno". I have both, plus another form. The PC and Blooms forms are identical.

[gote]

Göte;
I ment the flowers going over, not the leaves, but I agree that moving them in summer is far better than autumn. However, I don't think I've ever lost any that were divided or moved late, they've just skipped over a year or two before sprouting.

Trilliums do grow roots even when they are dormant, at least the completely dried out "Dutch" ones do, but like the seeds it's temperature dependant.

I have attributed the fact that late replanted rhizomes make no show in the spring to that they have not developed sufficient root mass because  (re-) planted to late. My lost offsets did not show up a year later  - unfortunately. The lost ones were fairly small but similar size separated earlier in the year did fine. Can you give more details about your dried ones that rooted. You must be doing something right that I do wrong.
Göte

[gote]

I think true Trillium grandiflorum 'Snowbunting' is lost. Most clones that purport to be 'Snowbunting' are selections from the clone prior to it being named. Paul Christian calls it 'Snowbunting' on the basis that it comes from that clone, even though he can't trace it back to the named clone. Blooms of Bressingham call the same clone, selected in the 1950s, " Flore Pleno". I have both, plus another form. The PC and Blooms forms are identical.

Are you saying that it is the same clone as Snowbunting but not a direct decendant?
If so, I think we are getting highly esoteric.
A Swedish author once wrote: "The Illiad was written by a totally unknown person with the name 'Homeros' OR written by another man with the same name"   
Göte
PS Swedish usage is to include the ending.

[Anthony Darby]

I think true Trillium grandiflorum 'Snowbunting' is lost. Most clones that purport to be 'Snowbunting' are selections from the clone prior to it being named. Paul Christian calls it 'Snowbunting' on the basis that it comes from that clone, even though he can't trace it back to the named clone. Blooms of Bressingham call the same clone, selected in the 1950s, " Flore Pleno". I have both, plus another form. The PC and Blooms forms are identical.

Are you saying that it is the same clone as Snowbunting but not a direct decendant?
If so, I think we are getting highly esoteric.
A Swedish author once wrote: "The Illiad was written by a totally unknown person with the name 'Homeros' OR written by another man with the same name"   
Göte
PS Swedish usage is to include the ending.

Actually Göte, you are confusing Shakespeare, whose plays weren't written by him, but by someone with the same name. The clone that became 'Snowbunting' was split and given to Tom, Dick and Harry long before it was shown and given due recognition as a named clone. Tom suggests it should be, by lineage, called 'Snowbunting'; Dick sticks to the recognised convention and calls it 'Flore Pleno' and Harry just smiles inscrutably as others argue the point.

[arisaema]

My lost offsets did not show up a year later  - unfortunately. The lost ones were fairly small but similar size separated earlier in the year did fine. Can you give more details about your dried ones that rooted. You must be doing something right that I do wrong.

I noticed some of the rhizomes had started shooting tiny, new roots when I received them last September, so I basically just potted them up and kept them at room temperature for a couple of months. I checked a couple of pots before throwing them outside in the benches in late November, and the roots had grown from a millimeter to a centimeter or so in lenght. T. catesbaei had some living roots when I got them, and the large majority have sprouted this spring, some with flower buds. T. recurvatum had no roots at all, but have also produced some sad looking plants.

[Rodger Whitlock]

Since 'Snowbunting' is clearly a clonal cultivar (as opposed to a seed strain), all plants derived from the original plant by vegetative propagation qualify for the name even if they predate the assignment of that cultivar name. If someone can demonstrate that 'Flore Pleno' was given  to that clone before 'Snow Bunting' was, then 'Flore Pleno' wins by virtue of priority  but with enough wrinkles lying in wait to drive us all mad.

Wrinkle the first: If first published after a certain date, Latinate cultivar names ('Albiflora', 'Flore Pleno', Pallida', etc) are invalid.

Wrinkle the second: Valid publication of a cultivar name is much simpler than valid publication of a botanical name. The appearance of a cultivar name in a dated nursery catalog with a description suffices. These two cultivar names could have first appeared in very obscure catalogs. And since nursery catalogs are very much ephemera, unlike academic journals, few libraries have anything approaching comprehensive collections.The RHS has a sizable collection, as does the Bailey Hortorium at Cornell University in New York state.

Wrinkle the third: There is the question whether 'Flore Pleno' in its original use refers to the same clone as 'Snowbunting'. It's known that more than one double form of T. grandiflorum has been found over the years, vide Fred Case's book "Trilliums" in which two quite different doubles are illustrated side by side. Incidentally, Case says that the most common double form of T. grandiflorum is known informally as "Smith's double". He is, however, confused in his discussion whether 'Flore Pleno' is or is not a valid cultivar name.

The RHS Plantfinder lists both Trillium grandiflorum f. polymerum 'Flore Pleno'  and Trillium grandiflorum f. polymerum 'Snowbunting'. Given that the Plantfinder takes considerable care about nomenclature, this suggests that somebody somewhere concluded that there are two (or more?) double-flowerd clones of T. grandiflorum. This does not mean that two clones haven't become confused in commerce.

It's a tangle wrapped in confusion and surrounded by bewilderment, but there may very well be information published on this issue already, perhaps in the RHS Journal, the Plantsman, or the AGS or SRGC or NARGS journals. Or perhaps someone can dredge through archives of the Trillium-L mailing list. Truthfully, without definite references to published literature we're all whistling in the dark. Is there anyone amongst us with librarianistic tendencies willing and able to dig around and see what turns up??? Or perhaps able and willing to pose these questions to the nice people who prepare the Plantfinder?

PS: A final Wrinkle the fourth to madden us all. It may be that 'Flore Pleno' and 'Snowbunting' are two clones that originated at different dates and places, but that they are indistinguishable. At that point we descend into a maelstrom of group names and can contemplate the delights of Trillium grandiflorum f. polymerum Flore Pleno Group 'Snowbunting'. Where are the men in white coats when we need them?

[bulborum]

Rodger

I don,t believe nurseryman and garden centers are willing to make labels as
Trillium grandiflorum f. polymerum Flore Pleno Group 'Snowbunting'
they will use Trillium grandiflorum Snowbunting or Trillium grandiflorum Flore Pleno
or we have in 10 years the same discussion with 3 names for the same plant
finally the commerce wins

Roland

[Diane Clement]

Wrinkle the first: If first published after a certain date, Latinate cultivar names ('Albiflora', 'Flore Pleno', Pallida', etc) are invalid.

One reason they are invalid, is that they are confusing, as they tend to sound like a form not a clone.  In this case, the use of flore pleno, or fl pl, I am sure is used as a general name for any double and not for one particular clone.  Which nuseries are particular enough to make sure 'Flore Pleno' has quote marks round it and capital letters thereby distinguishing it as a clonal name and not just a form. 

Wrinkle the third: There is the question whether 'Flore Pleno' in its original use refers to the same clone as 'Snowbunting'.

I thought that 'Snowbunting' had hose-in-hose type petals, all petals parallel with the one they sit inside, whereas general flore pleno (lower case, no quotes) had overlapping petals where they double.  I don't know whether 'Flore Pleno' actually exists as a clone, and which flower shape it follows.

The RHS Plantfinder lists both Trillium grandiflorum f. polymerum 'Flore Pleno'  and Trillium grandiflorum f. polymerum 'Snowbunting'. Given that the Plantfinder takes considerable care about nomenclature, this suggests that somebody somewhere concluded that there are two (or more?) double-flowerd clones of T. grandiflorum. This does not mean that two clones haven't become confused in commerce.

The Plantfinder does take care, (although it is not without mistakes) so yes, there must be two registered clonal names.  However, The Plantfinder doesn't check nursery stock to see whether they match the names they are using.   

Where are the men in white coats when we need them? 

Don't know about white coats, but I am sure that the men in a white van are on their way. 

[Lesley Cox]

My understanding of 'Snowbunting' is, like yours Diane, that each layer sits on top of the under layer, neatly matching the shape below, in which case Gote's doesn't qualify.

I have two slightly different forms now and both are labelled (by my choice) simply as Trillium grandiflorum, double form. Thus I lose no sleep.

[Rodger Whitlock]

Where are the men in white coats when we need them? 

Don't know about white coats, but I am sure that the men in a white van are on their way. 

Busted again!

Incidentally, following on the description of 'Snowbunting' as hose-in-hose (after a fashion), I can say that it looks much like the double T. g. that Fred Case illustrates on the left-hand side of the relevant page in his book. Narcissus eystettensis, Queen Anne's Double Jonquil, is a double in the same fashion..

[Anthony Darby]

I searched the Trillium-L archive (http://botu07.bio.uu.nl/Trillium-L/) and found this 2004 post from Carl Denton.

"The  cultivar name 'Snow Bunting' for Trillium grandiflorum was first registered
when it was awarded an Award of Merit at Chelsea Show in 1966. It had been
grown by Major and Mrs Knox Finlay of Keillour, Perthshire, Scotland.
Any T. grandiflorum to carry that cultivar name 'Snow Bunting' should be a
vegetative offset from that one plant.
It is likely that the Knox Finlay's obtained their double T. grandiflorum
from Dr Henry Teuscher of Montreal Botanic Gardens in the 1950's which had
no cultivar name but was just called 'flore plenum'.
Although 'Snow Bunting' and flore plenum may be from the same stock
(probably going back to 1924 and James L Smith postmaster at Erin) then the
only ones which can be given the cultivar name are those which can
demonstrate a direct vegetative link with Knox Finlay's 'Snow Bunting'.
I would be very grateful if anyone could demonstrate this direct link
between the present so called 'Snow Bunting's and the original. I feel that
the name 'Snow Bunting'  has been resurrected as a marketting ploy, it sounds
so much better than flore plenum."

[angie]

Can someone give me a name for this trillum please.
Angie

[Anthony Darby]

"Angie's delight" would fit. , but probably Trillium chloropetalum.

[angie]

Thanks Anthony I wish I had kept a note of all my plant names. I do write down my new plants in a book and where l planted them, the only bad thing about this is I keep losing my book.
I keep telling everyone how hopeless l am and its true.
Angie

[Rodger Whitlock]

"Any T. grandiflorum to carry that cultivar name 'Snow Bunting' should be a vegetative offset from that one plant."

I'm pretty sure that if you have a family of individual specimens of plants, all grown by vegetative means, and you give a cultivar name to one in the Nth generation, that name applies to all members of the family, including aunts, uncles, grandparents to the Nth, and cousins in variety.

The point being that all these specimens, new and old, have the same DNA. They are identical. I suppose if the first 'Snow Bunting' were a mutation and the first of its kind, then in that case the cultivar name would indeed apply only to the later generations.

Remember the point is to name a group of plants that are, for horticultural purposes, identical.

Indeed, we see this from time to time when a rare white-flowered, double-flowered, scented, variegated whatsit is assigned a cultivar name such as 'Glory of Tibet', but later it turns out that the originator wants her husband's name used, and so all those Glories of Tibet become Joe Bloggses.