Sempervivum and Jovibarba

[cohan]

One of my favourites, Jovibarba allioni from Gorges Superieures de Cians France.. in its spring finest on May 11, this year..



In my cool summers so far (since '09) it has only slightly opened (though I seem to not have photos from late June to mid Aug, the warmest time; will have to watch this year), and retained red tips.. I think I have another allioni clone received unnamed, and it seems to open more... below from left: Oct 18, 2009, June 11, Aug 28, Sept 05, 2010 (overexposed, its not that pale)

     

[Graham Catlow]

I know that many of us find the different Sempervivium cultivars hard to resist and so I think that those of us in the UK and EU will be interested in a new (to me) web-based nursery, specialising in Semps.

The nursery is run by Andrew Whelan in Northamptonshire, who has developed his online business as a result of his private enthusism for these plants. He's breeding them, too!  
 
There is a super selection and he offers free delivery though he can only sell to the UK and EU

That can't be  bad and his prices seem perfectly reasonable.... that's always a good point, too  

The website is www.sempervivumnursery.co.uk

Hope you like it!

A good site (too good) thanks Maggi. The prices are reasonable and no postage makes it excellent value. A £10 minimum order isn't unreasonable either.

Now where do I put some more

[fermi de Sousa]

Now where do I put some more

No more room on the roof?
 
cheers
fermi

[Hoy]

Now where do I put some more

No more room on the roof?
 
cheers
fermi

Nice idea - I do use my shedroof Not Semps but they could do too.

[renee]

Can someone give me the list of Sempervivum breed by Andrew Whelan from www.sempervivumnursery.co.uk (if possible with the year of introduction)? Thank you!

[Maggi Young]

Can someone give me the list of Sempervivum breed by Andrew Whelan from www.sempervivumnursery.co.uk (if possible with the year of introduction)? Thank you!

Would Andrew Whelan not be the best person to assist you with this? Have you asked him?

[Kees Jan]

Can anyone help me with the name of this Sempervivum? It was photographed at Zigana Pass (south of Trabzon, NE Turkey) in September. I suppose it must be in the Jovibarba group...

I know S. armenum, davisii and brevipetalum are species that grow in the general area, but I don't know how to separate them.

[TheOnionMan]

Hi Kees, I think it might be difficult to tell at the late season because the semps are contracting into winter mode and look very different than when in active growth.

One of the online tools that I like for Turkish flora is TÜBİVES, the Turkish Plants Data Service:
http://turkherb.ibu.edu.tr/index

I use the search function, specify sempervivum, and get a complete list of species in Turkey. Only the ones colored in blue are found in the Trabzon region.

 Rosularia sempervivum subsp. sempervivum  
 Sempervivum armenum var. armenum  
 Sempervivum armenum var. insigne  
 Sempervivum glabrifolium  
 Sempervivum staintonii  
 Sempervivum ispartae  
 Sempervivum davisii  (IĞDIR, ARTVİN, ERZURUM)
 Sempervivum brevipetalum  
 Sempervivum globiferum subsp. aghricum  
 Sempervivum transcaucasicum  
 Sempervivum artvinense  
 Sempervivum furseorum  
 Sempervivum gillianii  
 Sempervivum pisidicum  
 Sempervivum brevipilum  (AMASYA, KAYSERİ, SİVAS)
 Sempervivum minus var. minus  
 Sempervivum minus var. glabrum  

I don't think it is one of the Jovibarba group, because the only one in Turkey is S. globiferum ssp. aghricum in AĞRI.  I'm guessing your plant is either S. armenum var. armenum or S. furseorum, but that's merely a best guess.  S. davisii and brevipilum would be outside the range of Trabzon.

Sempervivum armenum (several varieties and forms):
http://www.semperhorst.de/Naturformen%20A/Naturformen%20A%20neu%20Seite1.htm

I'm not familiar with S. furseorum, here's a link with some information, scroll to near the bottom:
http://www.semperhorst.de/Naturformen%20F/Naturformen%20F%20neue%20Seite1.htm
...good photo of S. furseorum, this might be a close fit, what do you think:
http://www.treknature.com/gallery/photo250874.htm

And then I found this recent taxonomic abstract on "A taxonomic revision of the Sempervivum davisii complex (Crassulaceae)" that recommends that S. artvinense, S. brevipetalum and S. furseorum fall within the variability of S. davisii. Excerpt: Sempervivum furseorum shows minor but consistent morphological and ecological differences as well as a disjunct distribution and is therefore treated as S. davisii ssp. furseorum.  Nothing is simple, is it?
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1756-1051.2010.00974.x/abstract

[Kees Jan]

Thanks, that helped!!! I read that S. furseorum has pubescent leaves, unlike S. armenum which is supposed to have glabrous leaves. My plants where certainly glabrous, I've zoomed in one of my pics, see in this message.

I think it will probably be Sempervivum armenum var. armenum because of the leaves and because I found it only about 35 km west from a known location of S. armenum (I found it a few km east of Zigana Pass, and it is known from Kostandagi Pass). I'm glad it isn't one of those hairy species , which would have made it much more complicated . I read var. armenum is distributed in NE Turkey while var. insigne is from further west.

I read Sempervivum minus is a much smaller plant with more leaves. (S. davisii glandular hairs, brevipetalum and brevipilum both pubescent leaves)

[Kees Jan]

To my great surprise I found out that I photographed Sempervivum armenum var. armenum a few years ago in spring at Kostandagi Gecidi (first three pics)! It does look VERY different at that time of year!!! Still I think both are armenum var. armenum.

I also discovered two more pics of Sempervivum from NE Turkey from that particular trip. These are hairy so I'm afraid they are quite a bit more complicated... Picture 4 and 5 are photographs from the road between Kars and Erzurum.

The last picture is a photograph made by Marijn van den Brink at Cirisli Geçidi, Karagöl Dağları, south of Çat. That's about halway down the north-south road between Erzurum and Bingol, probably on serpentine rock.

[TheOnionMan]

To my great surprise I found out that I photographed Sempervivum armenum var. armenum a few years ago in spring at Kostandagi Gecidi (first three pics)! It does look VERY different at that time of year!!! Still I think both are armenum var. armenum.

I also discovered two more pics of Sempervivum from NE Turkey from that particular trip. These are hairy so I'm afraid they are quite a bit more complicated... Picture 4 and 5 are photographs from the road between Kars and Erzurum.

The last picture is a photograph made by Marijn van den Brink at Cirisli Geçidi, Karagöl Dağları, south of Çat. That's about halway down the north-south road between Erzurum and Bingol, probably on serpentine rock.

Back on the TÜBİVES site, there is an interactive map, click on any Province and it gives a list of all plant taxa in that province. Here are the semps found in Erzurum and Kars.  "South of Çat" is still in Erzurum.  I believe semps in photos 4-6 are all S. davisii, a hirsute species.

Taxa In Vilayets (Provinces)
http://turkherb.ibu.edu.tr/index.php?sayfa=200

Erzurum
  Sempervivum armenum var. armenum 
  Sempervivum davisii 

Kars
  Sempervivum brevipetalum

Photos of S. davisii can be seen on this link:
http://www.semperhorst.de/Naturformen%20D/Naturformen%20D%20neue%20Seite1.htm

[Kees Jan]

I think you are right! Many thanks indeed.

S. brevipetalum may have been another candidate for the plants between Kars and Erzurum, but hence this quote it is probably a synonym "Vermutlich ist diese Art [brevipetalum] in die Synonymie von S. davisii zu stellen, da nach Ansicht des Autors die morphologischen Unterschiede nicht ausreichen, sondern in die Variationsbreite
dieser Art fallen."

(Beiträge zur Taxonomie der Gattung Sempervivum L. (Crassulaceae) unter besonderer Berücksichtigung der in Kleinasien vorkommenden Sippen
Inaugural-Dissertation zur Erlangung des Doktorgrades Dr. rer. nat. des Fachbereichs Biologie und Geografie an der Universität Duisburg-Essen Campus Essen vorgelegt von Philipp Neeff aus Haan (Rheinland) April 2005)

[Kees Jan]

Here are two other Sempervivum populations. The first is along the road Ardahan and Kars, more to the NE of any sempervivum that I have shown before in this tread. The picture is rather poor but it does display hairs, at least on the underside of the leaves. According to the publication I mentioned above this is also supposed to be Sempervivum davisii, no other species nearby.

The other picture is from Ziyaret Gecidi, a pass just west of Gurun (east of Kayseri, south of Sivas). This again is a hairy species... It may well be Sempervivum brevipilum, which is known from this general area.

[TheOnionMan]

Hmmm, no semp species are listed for Ardahan, and just S. brevipetalum is listed for Kars.  I have not found a photo of brevipetalum.  I did find the full reference on the S. davisii "complex" (includes S. davisii, S. artvinense, S. furseorum, and S. brevipetalum), here's the link:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1756-1051.2010.00974.x/full

Excerpt:
"According to the ‘Flora of Turkey’ (Muirhead 1972), S. artvinense differs from S. davisii by having green and incurved rosette leaves with stiff bristly hairs, and S. brevipetalum differs from S. davisii by having smaller rosettes, narrower leaves and shorter petals. In natural populations of the species, we observed that all the characters are overlapping, and are thus of no value for distinguishing the species. Neeff (2008) accepted S. artvinense without any comments on relationships. He recognized an “S. artvinense aggregate” from east of the Kaçkardağı, and an “S. artvinense aggregate” from south of the Karçal Dağı, and further commented on the many local forms of S. artvinense with overlapping areas. Moreover, Neeff (2008) notes that “pure forms” of S. davisii were found in close proximity to S. artvinense but at somewhat lower altitudes in the Kaçkar Dağları. Sempervivum brevipetalum was known to Neeff (2008) from the isotype only, and he regarded it as a probable synonym of S. davisii because of the minor morphological differences. According to Neeff (2008), S. brevipetalum can be regarded as a low-altitude form of S. davisii. Moreover, we could not find any specimens of S. brevipetalum in spite of many expeditions to its type location and other potential areas. This might be due to extinction of the species in the area, or the information concerning the type locality being wrong, or the species being distributed elsewhere."

At the end of that paper, brevipetalum is put in synonymy with S. davisii ssp. davisii.

The second location you mention, should still be in the Sivas Province, where only S. brevipilum is listed.

[Kees Jan]

Thanks Mark, brand new article! Reading your paper all my S. davisii shown so far must be S. davisii ssp. davisii, based on geographical distribution !

The article that I referred to earlier can be found at http://deposit.ddb.de/cgi-bin/dokserv?idn=981703186&dok_var=d1&dok_ext=pdf&filename=981703186.pdf also seems to regard brevipetalum as synonymous with davisii. S. brevipetalum was known from a single location and has not been found since a long time. This article is particularly useful because it has good descriptions and detailed distribution maps .

I just discoverd that we also found S. davisii ssp. furseorum at Soganli Gecidi in spring (about 4 years ago), there is a picture on Marijn van den Brinks website: http://photos.v-d-brink.eu/Flora-and-Fauna/Asia/Turkey-the-Northeastern-part/ (just before the Crocus aerius pics at about 1/3 of the gallery)