Extinct or existing Pleione?

[Pieter]

Hello all

There are a lot of Pleione hybrids made so far. If I counted correctly on Paul Cumbleton’s list, there are 297 registered hybrids. This number does not include the selected clones. That is an impressive number. But we all see the catalogues  with the commercially available Pleiones and when we do the math, things don’t add up.
Talking to an other forum member, Slug Killer, about the availability of Pleione hybrids, he told me that some Pleione hybrids are not available because they no longer exist and others are to difficult to multiply.     
So it would be very interesting to see what Pleione hybrids and selections are still out there amongst the enthusiasts. This would make it possible to make a new list with the existing Pleione.
If you want to share this information, please do.       
Thanks

Greetings

Pieter

[Maren]

Hi,
when you say the hybrid no longer exists, I assume you mean that you cannot find a plant to buy. A hybrid, once made and registered, exists forever, because anyone can re-make the hybrid and call it by the same name.

Therefore you can think of two lists, one of registered hybrids which will go on increasing, and one of available plants, which may fluctuate, depending on the difficulty to multiply, peoples tastes etc. etc. I feel that the second list may be much too volatile to maintain and for all you know, someone somewhere may be growing old hybrids with great success but has no access to the internet or is not interested in publicity or the maintenance of lists.

[Pieter]

Hello Maren

Yes exactly. But I also meant that it is possible that a hybrid was once registered but proved very difficult to keep so that it lost all intrest in it and in such a way got lost, maybe forever.
It is true that any one can make an existing hybrid when ever possible. That is also something interesting to know. Since some hybrids are made with a selected clone, it could be possible to make the same hybrid but this time with an other clone from the same species or grex that can be better.
It wouldn't be the exact same hybrid but it could be a good form that has a bit more vigour. In case of Edgecomb, the current stock is known to have a low resistance to black pit fungus. Many people have remade that cross and maybe there are strains that are more resistend.    

Of course,  in today's age, you may think that everybody has access to internet but there still are people that don't have the possibility or even chose not be linked to the world wide web. The greatest example of all, Ian Butterfield.  And it could very well be that some where, some can mass produce the rarest hybrid without any one knowing it. Those are the hidden treassures that keep us all dreaming, hoping that one day it will emerge. 

Maybe we should stick to the simple list with the Pleione that are able to increase and are known to be a part of the common trade.

Good thinking Maren

Greetings

Pieter

[ThomasB]

A really interesting topic and something I also thought about while searching for certain hybrids or cultivars.

As far as I understand it is impossible that a hybrid can become extinct because anyone could do it again (as long as a certain species doesn't become extinct) and it had to get the name already registered for this cross. Certain cultivars (grex) might become extinct though because all plants true to one cultivar name do go back to just one plant.

I think that a hybridiser would keep each cross he ever did and so every Pleione hybrid should be theoretically available. But obviously some are bad growers and simply hard to keep alive let alone to multiply them. While looking at the pictures at Paul's homepage or in "The Genus Pleione" I wonder why beautiful and very distinct hybrids like 'Burrator', 'Helgafell', 'Kohala', 'Mazama' or 'Tsingtau' (really love this one!) aren't widely available or aren't available at all.

[Slug Killer]

Pieter

I would just like to be able to look at a list that also had 'named' cultivars/groups not just the original hybrids cross (grex) or species.

For example Pleione Nozomi grex, Liane Group or as Pln. Nozomi gx, Liane Gp.

Pleione Nozomi was registered by M Hazelton last year.the same cross tried to be registered a few weeks later by Gunter Blankenburg as Pleione Liane. Hazelton registered the new hybrid days before Gunters application was received but as Gunters looked very different it was given a group name (which in this case was what he was going to call the hybrid 'Liane').

Pleione Nozomi - M Hazelton 2009
Pln. Nozomi gx, Liane Gp - Gunter Blankenburg 2009


There does not seem to be anyway to see these 'group' lists online or paper form from the RHS orchid Registry.
Please let me know if there is.

David

[Darren]

I think this is a good idea ( I, too have looked at the pictures in the second edition of The Genus Pleione and dreamed!). However I must confess to being one of those individuals the Maren mentions. I have not obtained any new pleione for 15 years but have simply maintained those I got from Ian Butterfield and others prior to 1995. I was demoralised by a Brevipalpus infestation in the late 1990s and stopped getting new material,  but thanks to advice from Paul Cumbleton my plants have been free of this pest for several years now. My plants are now very healthy and I enjoy growing them but I've never really re-engaged with the pleione growing community, or even look at this thread much. I'm sure that there are plenty of us out there who are quietly growing older clones, though in my case I doubt there is anything not available elsewhere.

That said - I do like the look of many of the newer hybrids I see your pictures of on this forum! And I cannot get over the availability of the pure species these days - 15 years ago this would have been unbelievable.

btw - are there now any white P. formosana clones that have a lip which fully expands? I find the slightly pinched look of my older ones such as 'Avalanche' and 'Claire' rather unattractive.

[Maren]

Hallo Thomas,
Ian Butterfield sometimes sells a few pleiones that are not in his catalogue. If you like, I can ask him if he has any of the ones on your list. I believe I got Pln Tsingtau and Burrator from him a couple of years ago and they are very slow to multiply.

[Slug Killer]

Hi,
when you say the hybrid no longer exists, I assume you mean that you cannot find a plant to buy. A hybrid, once made and registered, exists forever, because anyone can re-make the hybrid and call it by the same name.

Once registered the 'name' exists forever but if there are no plants any longer available anywhere then the hybrid no longer exists until such time that someone does the cross again. You can't say something exists forever when there aren't any just because it has a name. If the parent species plant became extinct then it would be impossible to do the cross again. Something only exists if there is one.

David

[ThomasB]

Hallo Thomas,
Ian Butterfield sometimes sells a few pleiones that are not in his catalogue. If you like, I can ask him if he has any of the ones on your list. I believe I got Pln Tsingtau and Burrator from him a couple of years ago and they are very slow to multiply.

Hello Maren,

I will send you a pm - thank you in advance for asking Ian Butterfield.
Don't know whether it worked cause I can't see any message within my outbox. 

[Maren]

Hi Thomas, I got your message and sent you a reply. Cheers.

[Pieter]

David

The list I have send you was one I could download fom the RHS website. Here is a link to the page where you can find the lists. I am still surching for more lists.

http://www.rhs.org.uk/Plants/RHS-Publications/Orchid-hybrid-lists

Greetings

Pieter

[ThomasB]

I have to reanimate this thread because I read about some older Pleione hybrids but couldn't find any pic online or at least someone mentioning to grow them.  Within "The Genus Pleione" I found mentioned:

Beerenberg (Vesuvius x Eiger, 1989) - interesting because it is an early flowerer
Pacaya (Paricutin x Erebus, 1990) - the flower pic looks like a lighter coloured Quizapu 'Peregrine'
Rumpelstilzchen (hookeriana x Versailles, 1989) - "flowers resemble P. hookeriana, but larger and better growers" sounds very desirable
Topolino (Eiger x aurita, 1992) - early flowering and fragrant for the most clones

Is anyone growing these or has an explanation why are these so rare? I would also like to get my hands on a Littondale - in my eyes this is one of the nicest Pleione flowers.

Regards Thomas

[Darren]

Not a hybrid but a cultivar - the one I'm curious about the continued existence of is P. forrestii 'Butterball' which is entirely yellow with no red marks. There is a picture in the second edition of the Genus Pleione but I remember hearing about this plant back in the early to mid 90s and also having a conversation with an eminent grower who believed it no longer existed at that time (i.e. before the picture was even published).

I'm interested to know if it is still around (not because I want one - P. forrestii is a species I find difficult).  It does strike me as being the sort of form which could easily arise again anyway now that the species is being raised from seed.

[ThomasB]

Not a hybrid but a cultivar - the one I'm curious about the continued existence of is P. forrestii 'Butterball' which is entirely yellow with no red marks.

The cultivar is named 'Buttercup'. Because the picture within "The Genus Pleione" is by I. Butterfield I would guess that maybe he might still grow it. Maybe Maren could inquire about that? 

[Paul Cumbleton]

I'm sure I remember Ian telling me that this cultivar expired long ago. I have never seen another example of one like it, but as you say one like it could easily arise again as the amount of spotting on the lip is very variable.

Paul