Starting Dactylohiza from seed

[Yann]

something interesting http://www.amjbot.org/cgi/reprint/85/6/829.pdf

[mark smyth]

Thanks Yann

[Neil]

Chris,

I take it the juice is going to be a fertiliser and whatever fungus bacteria are in the source material of it? 

[Hristo]

Hi Neil,
My assumption has been that the juice will carry fungal spores and micro-nutrients, as well as necessary moisture. The cardboard is the carbohydrate food source for the fungus. The lack of availability of simple or more complex sugars as compared to aspectic symbiotic or asymbiotic methods helps hold unwanted fungal/bacterial proliferation at bay, IMHO.

[Neil]

Thanks Chris

Did you use fresh or dried seeds?   

[mark smyth]

This is so exciting. Roll on August 2011.

[Paul T]

OK, a slight detour here...... I'm being sent some Ophrys seed.  What would the suggestion be for trying to germinate these guys?  I'm tempted to just try them sown in the Spirathes pots to see the results?  Spiranthes fungal links I've heard are apparently quite useful for orchid germination?  Not sure I'll have time to do a whole setup of the system like Chris has.  What do you think?

[Hristo]

Neil,
I harvested from June onwards and sowed in October. You can sow fresh but only onto pre-prepared media/matrices. A few months of cool,dry storage does not seem to have effected viability. I know other platers who have posted on this site will go into the field with pre-prepared media and sow immediately. ( In-vitro )

Mark,
Get started now, if you can get your tubs, cardboard etc you can check before you sow that you have developed fungal communities ready! I am thinking of getting another 40 tubs prepared this month ready for the seed harvesting season.

Paul, split your seed if you have enough, try some different approaches, sow with Spiranthes, I have Ophrys germinations in the open gadren in association with Thymus species. Malmgren points out that Spiranthes/Dactylorhiza are amongst the easier species to germinate symbiotically, Ophrys may not associate with the fungus that germinates these species.

[gote]

I have a question or note.
Some literature states that although dactylorhizas do need fungi for germinating in nature they will get rid of them later and may be clean.
On the other hand "juice" from the compost is likely to be full of fungal matter.
So do we know for sure that the inoculation from orchid roots is essential?
This is of interest to anyone who does not have access to orchid roots but gets seed from a seed exchange.
By the way; Malmgren states that pineapple juice in small additions seems to have a beneficial effect not only supplying sugars but also some kind of growth promoting substance. Since he is very successful I tend to take his advice seriously.
Göte
 

[winwen]

Hristo's method of growing orchids is symbiotically, while Svante Malmgren does it asymbiotically. For many asymbiotic media, pineapple-juice is a good addition (as is coconut-water and potato-dextrose-extract too) but not for the symbiotic media. If you grow orchids symbiotically and add starch or sugar - you have to work sterile! Hristo is right when saying that the use of cardboard as carbon source makes it possible to work not sterile. This is what Dr. Beyrle also stated before (I think in the 1990s).
Some postings before, Hristo wrote that he uses the B1. This is a powerful symbiotic fungus. You dont need to add other fungi (with the compost-heap-juice) but you also could use a well balanced fertilizer-mixture together with micro-elements, B-Vitamins and some proteins (organic Nitrogenium).
For better reliability of the procedure it would be better not to use the compst-heap-juice. Not all compst-heaps have the same compounds!

[Hristo]

Hi Winwen,
My use of this method really stems from a desire to move away from chemicals and lab procedures. This year I may actually set up some control experiments. Attempts so far have been about getting results, 2011 is a chance to refine procedures and ensure repeatability( with luck ). The initial literature I read  suggested only the use of compost juices in germinating Bletilla species.
I suspect there are a large number of variations to the cardboard method that can be attempted. Years of fun!!!
Gote,
I have only just sown 4 cartons that have the B1 fungus all previous cartons gained their fungus from compost juice / meadow soil / woodland detritus or the roots of the target orchid species. No control was applied so I can't say which of those four potential fungal sources was the donor. Now I have tubs with germinations I will take samples from those tubs and innoculate some tubs for 2011 sowings and again try a range of species with the active fungus from 2010. The tubs from 2010 that have not succeeded could be down to incompatible fungal partners or no partner present.

[Neil]

Thanks Chris, some experimentation coming up soon

[Nick_the_grief]

My local nature reserve has quite a good show of Orchids each year and this year I bought ( Honest, I did) some seed of ophyrs apifera (bee orchid).  I did wonder about taking say a couple of teaspoons of soil from the area where they grow and using this to 'inoculate' the compost (for want of a better phrase) but this looks like it's worth a punt. 

Any spare plants I proposed to plant back in the NR subject to the Wildlife trust saying it was OK.

Dactylorhiza were going to be my next attempt

[Neil]

My local nature reserve has quite a good show of Orchids each year and this year I bought ( Honest, I did) some seed of ophyrs apifera (bee orchid).  I did wonder about taking say a couple of teaspoons of soil from the area where they grow and using this to 'inoculate' the compost (for want of a better phrase) but this looks like it's worth a punt. 

Any spare plants I proposed to plant back in the NR subject to the Wildlife trust saying it was OK.

Nick that is a big no, as the genetic make up of you seed will be different to that on the reserve. 

[gote]

Hi Winwen,
Gote,
I have only just sown 4 cartons that have the B1 fungus all previous cartons gained their fungus from compost juice / meadow soil / woodland detritus or the roots of the target orchid species. No control was applied so I can't say which of those four potential fungal sources was the donor. Now I have tubs with germinations I will take samples from those tubs and innoculate some tubs for 2011 sowings and again try a range of species with the active fungus from 2010. The tubs from 2010 that have not succeeded could be down to incompatible fungal partners or no partner present.

Looking forward to lern about it when you have results. I think I will try myself thie summer - it seems so much easier for a bungler like me.
Göte