Allium 2010

[TheOnionMan]

Thought I might as well kick off the "Allium 2010" thread   

I'm opening with a species that is somewhat of a puzzle.  I'm growing a very nice allium that took about 6 years to flower from seed, have since lost the label (crows love pulling out labels), no matter, I believed it to be misnamed based on the foliage.  It certainly is within the Allium nigrum-atropurpureum-cyrillii clan, and I'm siding towards Allium cyrillii on this one.

In Flora of Turkey, it is stated about Allium atropurpureum "The Turkish material is rather close to cyrillii".  It also states that flower color on plants in Turkey is lighter compared to the much darker forms in Romania and Bulgaria.  In my plant, flower color appears darker than it is, because the very prominent dark purple anthers, dark purple ovary and pedicels.  The tepals are actually somewhat pale lilac and the thick triangular stamen bases are prominently white with just a hint of purplish tinge.  Flowers are fragrant.

I upload a photo of A. atropurpureum for comparison, the affinity is obvious.  Wish I could get seed from a clean wild collected source for A. atropurpureum; the ones sold in autumn bins of Dutch imported bulbs are mostly virused, and my plants never set seed.

[LucS]

Thought I might as well kick off the "Allium 2010" thread   

I'm opening with a species that is somewhat of a puzzle.  I'm growing a very nice allium that took about 6 years to flower from seed, have since lost the label (crows love pulling out labels), no matter, I believed it to be misnamed based on the foliage.  It certainly is within the Allium nigrum-atropurpureum-cyrillii clan, and I'm siding towards Allium cyrillii on this one.

This is a very nice allium with a good colour. About 50cm high I guess ?
I have never grown this species from seeds, unfortunately.

[Stephenb]

Nice start, Mark..

I've tried seed propagated A. atropureum several times and always ended up with impostors. I saw the one in the picture below in Bjørn Thon's garden near Tromsø in Northern Norway last summer. Can you confirm its identity (he gave me a couple of onions)? I earlier posted it here:

http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3874.msg102422#msg102422

Allium cyrillii I've only seen once, in the Goteborg Botanics in Sweden - this is the only picture I have:

[TheOnionMan]

I've tried seed propagated A. atropureum several times and always ended up with impostors. I saw the one in the picture below in Bjørn Thon's garden near Tromsø in Northern Norway last summer. Can you confirm its identity (he gave me a couple of onions)? I earlier posted it here:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3874.msg102422#msg102422

The plant labelled A. atropurpureum is certainly not that species.  A. atropurpureum (Allium section melanocrommyum) has 3-7 broad flat leaves (1-4 cm broad), similar to the foliage you see in the entire-plant view of A. cyrillii.  In my experience with A. atropurpureum from Dutch imported bulbs, the leaves are even broader than reported, looking much coarser than A. cyrillii. 

The plant in the photograph has narrow fistular leaves, and is probably a member of Allium section Allium (containing familiar "drumstick" species, A. rotundum, sphaerocephalum, etc).  The photo is not clear enough or close enough to reveal key details to narrow down an ID, for example whether the hollow leaves are finely ribbed or not.  It sort of looks like A. rubrovitattum... although that species only grows up to 20 cm, and has fairly distinctive striped florets (dark red tepals that have a white margin). Another guess is A. jubatum, but without knowing more subtle details, it could be one of among a couple dozen similar looking species.

Allium cyrillii I've only seen once, in the Goteborg Botanics in Sweden - this is the only picture I have:

In terms of the seed pods, this looks much like mine... always making a full head of capsules, although many capsules can and do abort if we get too many summer thunderstorms and downpours, followed by heat and humidity.  But most years I get some seed.  The seed heads on A. atropurpureum look much the same, although typically abort or capsules are empty.

By the way, my A. cyrillii look much like the 4 photos found on this Russian site, showing plants in the wild in Crimea.
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/view/item/1943.html

[Stephenb]

Thanks for your comments Mark. Will be hopefully be able to take some close-ups next summer - if I have any plants left, highs  of between -18 and -20C forecast over the next few days (thankfully, we now have a reasonable snowcover).

The more you look at pictures of my Alliums, the closer I'm getting to Dr. Fritsch's statement that 60% or more of Alliums are wrongly identified (even in botanical gardens!).

[Sinchets]

Looking at your pics of Allium atropurpureum I am pretty sure it is the one we have as a road side weed in the mountain pass we use to cross the mountains heading south. I'd be happy to look out for seeds tis year if you are interested. We also have A.cyrillii in the same area.

[ranunculus]

POSTING FEATURING PERSONAL MESSAGES BETWEEN RANUNCULUS AND THE ONION MAN PUBLISHED WITH KIND PERMISSION.

Hi Mark,
I hope you don't mind me contacting you personally but I was wondering
if you could very kindly identify this onion found at sea level near
Olu Deniz in Turkey?   Up to four feet tall it was growing in rough
sandy habitats quite near to the shore.
Any ideas would be much appreciated.
Snowing hard here at the moment
and forming drifts over sheets of ice.
Kind regards,
Cliff

Hi Cliff,

I think this Allium is A. amethystinum.  I have checked the Flora of Turkey, as well as Brian Mathew's "A review of Allium section Allium.  The species is quite variable, but there is one unique characteristic, Mathew writes: "Pedicels smooth, unequal, 1-2 cm long at anthesis, the inner ones soon becoming erect and elongating to up to 5 cm, forming the impression of a "two-tiered" umbel." There's a photo of this species in the book, at later anthesis with little flower color left, but the two-tiered umbel effect if very obvious, and I'd say they are the same as in your photos.  The ciliate filaments, stem height, location in coastal Turkey near sea level, all fit.

I must say, it is a very attractive plant, isn't it!  Recommendation:  post the photos and our discussion to the SRCG "Allium 2010" discussion, to share with everyone.

Regards,

Mark McDonough
antennaria@charter.net



Hi Mark,
Many thanks for your kind assistance and for the very creditable identification.  I will post our discussion and the images on the forum as you suggested though it will have to wait until the morrow I'm afraid!
Kind regards,
Cliff

[Stephenb]

Thanks for posting this, Cliff.

I was struck by this species which I saw in June last year at Wakehurst Place (a garden to the south of London administered by Kew). Here are a few pictures I took:

[anita]

Hi,
I was wondering if I could seek some advice from the SRGC brains trust?
I'm trying to figure out which of the statuesque alliums might survive in the garden in Adelaide in Southern Australia. I don't have any problem supplying dry summer conditions... we are seriously dry... lucky to see 25 mm between November and March. Our annual rainfall generally arrives between April (late autumn and October, late spring).
My conundrum is that there is so little information on chill factors required for alliums to grow and flower successfully. Our climate is equivalent to US cold zone 11 (that's minimum's of 4-10C degrees, we do occasionally drop to 0C but that might be for an hour overnight - quite a contrast to what's happening in the northern hemisphere now!). The HZ is about the equivalent of US 6 (that is 46-60 days above 30C and we are heading for a spell of three days straight above 41C which will test out the garden).
I have planted Allium neopolitan spp cowannii and that seems to be managing, A. schubertii was planted last summer and flowered in spring '09... the jury's out on whether it will repeat in spring '10. I have tried to stick with the Mediterranean types but that is not necessarily successful as even Tuscany and Provence get a lot colder than it does here (no messing about with dragging pots of lemons inside here.. if they're in pots or the garden its just a question of making sure they get enough water!). I tried Allium siculum (syn N. siculum) last year from three different suppliers and the poor things didn't even bother putting their heads above the ground.
The climate of the Mani region in the Southern Peloponnese is about the closest NH equivalent I can suggest to our climate, and certain areas of southern California would be similar. Certainly things like Crocus goulimyi and C. cartwrightiannus thrive to the extent of self seeding. I'm just wary of spending more $$ on luscious looking A. giganteum ($A14.50 each) or A. Globemaster (same) or A. hollandicum Purple Sensation and A. Mount Everest ($A15) if they don't persist in the garden.
I'd appreciate your advice and any suggestions (and if anyone wants to send over a few degrees of -C to bring the +41C down over the next couple of days that would be welcome too).
Anita

[Sinchets]

This is what I am currently growing as A.amethystinum- the pic was posted last summer. Maybe it is not true or maybe it is just variable. I bought the plant before I moved here and now know the species is native to SE Bulgaria as well as Turkey 

[Janis Ruksans]

Allium amethystinum from my collection. Origin - Turkey. near Uzumlu at 1300 m altitude. Identified by Arnis Seisums.
Janis

[Janis Ruksans]

I'm just wary of spending more $$ on luscious looking A. giganteum ($A14.50 each) or A. Globemaster (same) or A. hollandicum Purple Sensation and A. Mount Everest ($A15) if they don't persist in the garden.
I'd appreciate your advice and any suggestions (and if anyone wants to send over a few degrees of -C to bring the +41C down over the next couple of days that would be welcome too).
Anita

I suppose that Alliums listed by you would like colder treatment in winter, but it is very difficult to predict reaction of individual species. Some supposed not growable here, grow very well, some supposed good gives failure. I can't grow A. giganteum here outside, for example.
Janis

[TheOnionMan]

I was wondering if I could seek some advice from the SRGC brains trust?
I'm trying to figure out which of the statuesque alliums might survive in the garden in Adelaide in Southern Australia. My conundrum is that there is so little information on chill factors required for alliums to grow and flower successfully. Our climate is equivalent to US cold zone 11.    Anita

For a number of years I corresponded frequently with Thad Howard who lived near San Antonio, Texas, a bulb expert of a unique kind, mostly known as a pioneer with such genera as Zephyranthes, Hymenocallis, Habranthus, but he also loved the genus Allium.  Sadly he passed away fairly recently, the world shall miss this kind, gentle, generous soul.  

In his expereince, many of the tall Allium species (Allium section melanocrommyum) such as giganteum, stipitatum, and others, failed to grow more than one season there, as there was insufficient cold dormancy.  However, there are a range of species that should perfectly well in your climate.  I recommend getting your hands on a copy of Thad Howard's invaluable book, Bulbs for Warm Climates, 2001, ISBN 0-292-73125-6
http://www.amazon.com/Bulbs-Warm-Climates-Thad-Howard/dp/0292731264

He has a chapter on Allium, a good overall summary of growing Allium in a warm climate, although many of the southwestern USA species and Mexican species he lists are mostly unobtainable.

Other writers on bulbs in warmer climates include titles by authors like Scott Ogden (Garden Bulbs for the South).

Lastly, look through the SRGC "Allium 2009" thread for photos of very attractive species in Israel, like A. tel-avivense and shubertii.  Found growing in such a warm climate, maybe such species could translate to your climate.

Hope this helps.

[TheOnionMan]

This is what I am currently growing as A.amethystinum- the pic was posted last summer. Maybe it is not true or maybe it is just variable. I bought the plant before I moved here and now know the species is native to SE Bulgaria as well as Turkey 

Looks like A. sphearocephalon to me.

[johnw]

I'm just wary of spending more $$ on luscious looking A. giganteum ($A14.50 each) or A. Globemaster (same) or A. hollandicum Purple Sensation and A. Mount Everest ($A15) if they don't persist in the garden.
I'd appreciate your advice and any suggestions (and if anyone wants to send over a few degrees of -C to bring the +41C down over the next couple of days that would be welcome too).
Anita

Anita  - I wish you were closer.  The company I work for was tossing the leftover bulbs before Christmas.  I was given 18 Globemasters and 75 Gladiators that seemed perfect still so we potted them up as the ground was frozen.  The  price was regularly half that in Australia, our dollars are nearly at par.  We'll see if the flower buds have been damaged by sitting around at room temperature from August until December.

johnw