Allium 2010

[TheOnionMan]

Congratulations, Mark. Very nice.
These are Allium atroviolaceum and Allium ramosum

Oleg, glad you showed A. ramosum, a well-behaved early summer blooming white.  For some strange reason it gets confused with the late summer blooming Allium tuberosum, which to me, looks very different.  I can't see much of the veining on the flowers of your plant, do they have good red mid-veins on the outside of the tepals, they look greenish to me from what I can see of them.  I will post a photo of my plant showing the red mid-veins for comparison.

Regarding A. atroviolaceum, I'm not sure about the identity of your plant.  The flower heads look oblong instead of more densely spherical, and the stamens not exserted enough, to match photos I've seen of A. atroviolaceum (such as the photo in "A Review of Allium secion Allium" by Brian Mathew. It looks somewhat like Allium rotundum ssp. jajlae to me.  Many of the "drumstick" alliums are very closely related and it is not easy to tell them apart.  All of these skinny "drumstick" alliums are very effective in mixed plantings in the garden, temporary vertical accents that take little room, I like them!  What is the source of your plant?

[TheOnionMan]

A miscellany of Alliums in June, trying to catch up

1-3  Allium amplectans - found throughout the coastal western US States and up into Canada, a most variable species.  Some forms I cannot grow, others are easy and amenable to cultivation.  The light pink form that I am showing is very easy, and seeds about a trifle too much getting in the middle of lots of other plants, but the foliage of "narrow-leaf onion" has little impact, and the whole affair quickly dries up and goes dormant after flowering, that I welcome the cheerful hemispheres of palest pink flowers, a species like A. hyalinum that can have reflective shiny bases to the tepals. About 10" (25 cm) in bloom.

4     Allium geyeri - not overly showy, but pleasant light pink-flowered species with urceolate upright flowers that can be striped deeper pink.  It can be grown in moist and shady locations, although will grow dry and sunny as well.

5-6  Allium ramosum - photos showing the red-nerved tepals, prounounced on the outside of the flowers.  Handsome well-behaved to about 1.5-2' tall (45-60 cm) but can be taller to 3' (90 cm), flowering early summer.  For me, it seeds around only modestly, always a welcome plant.

7     Allium kochii (= A. vineale).  I retain the original name, as it is indeed A. vineale, but in a well-behaved small and interesting form that is not invasive.  Got this in 1991, sent to me from Arnfried Abraham, collected on the Isle of Usedom, Baltic Coast, germany, in sandy areas.  The flower heads are tiny, really TINY, held on 14-18" (35-45 cm) thread thin stems, with minuscule bulbils in the inflorescence.  The bulbils are allowed to drop, and in my dry allium garden I have never seen a stray invader, the colony is less that 12" (30 cm) across in all those years.

8     Allium cernuum - large head with spaced florets.  A form with flower heads up to 4" (10 cm) across, a rather largely diffuse inflorescence form.

9     Allium cernuum - large head forms (the previous form on the right).

10   Allium cernuum - sideways inflorescence.  Generally, when I see sideways sprays of flowers of the cernuum kind, it is Allium stellatum, although this is clearly an A. cernuum form, with heads that turn to a 90 degree sideways angle, versus the typical 180 degree full nod.  I find a number of such forms, as well as those where heads turn "somewhat downwards", perhaps a 135 degree angle than the full 180.  Rule breakers they are!

[Stephenb]

Oleg, glad you showed A. ramosum, a well-behaved early summer blooming white.  For some strange reason it gets confused with the late summer blooming Allium tuberosum, which to me, looks very different.  I can't see much of the veining on the flowers of your plant, do they have good red mid-veins on the outside of the tepals, they look greenish to me from what I can see of them.  I will post a photo of my plant showing the red mid-veins for comparison.

Concerning ramosum/tuberosum these have always confused me, but perhaps because it is not only an early flowerer? I suspect that Allium tuberosum is actually often ramosum in areas with harder climates as the latter is very hardy. I've tried many tuberosums from different sources and most don't make it through the winter and those that do seem to be ramosum. Anyway, here's a series of what I think are all ramosum, but flowering at different times:

1) A plant I received as ramosum, an early flowerer (4th June)
2-3) A plant I received as A. ledebourianum, obviously isn't (8th in bud and 22nd August in flower in my garden)
4) A plant seen in Uppsala Botanical Garden (Sweden) marked as Allium kurrat but not (9th September)
5) One of my "tuberosums" (a late flowerer on 24th September - this one isn't hardy, but isn't it ramosum?)

I'd be interested what you have to say about this set, Mark...

[olegKon]

Mark, fantastic allium amplectans you have! American alliums are always something special.
My Allium ramosum does have a bit of green but still the general impression is that of the red veining. Sorry for the quality of the picture. We have been having a spell of exaptionally hot weather with the brightest sunshine for more than a fourtnight which makes it difficult for me to focus the camera.
As for Allium atroviolaceum, I'm almost sure that it is the authentic plant. Unfortunately the picture doesn't show the scale, but it's at least 3 times as big as Allium rotundum ssp. jailae both in height and the size of the flower head. You can find my source at www.mnogoletnik.narod.ru It is in Russian, but you'll see a list of blue options to the left of the picture. Click the 5th one which says Луки Кавказа (Alliums of the Caucasus) and you'll find it there (latin names luckily). The seller is always correct in what he sends. It's just the very beginning of its flowering time, so this must produce a different impression.
Stephen, your first 3 pictures are really those of Allium ramosum. The others show Allium tuberosum.

[olegKon]

May be this picture will seem a bit better (Allium atroviolaceum)

[TheOnionMan]

Mark, fantastic allium amplectans you have! American alliums are always something special.

Stephen, your first 3 pictures are really those of Allium ramosum. The others show Allium tuberosum.

Oleg, I agree with your assessment of Stephen's photos, 1-3 = A. ramosum, the others show A. tuberosum.  Stephen: I have studied this quite a bit, I'll try to put something together that better illustrates the differences.

Oleg, on the A. atroviolaceum, I'm still having a problem with that identification.  First of all, these Allium section Allium are a very difficult group to work with to key out, so they are easily misidentified even by fairly knowledgeable horticulturalists and nursery people.  The things that don't seem right for me:  

1. your plant has an oblong shape to the inflorescence... the pedicels are of unequal length, the outer ones shorter than the inner ones which are much longer and grow the head taller, thus giving the oblong shape.  This characteristic of unequal pedicel length is typical for A. rotundum (and subspecies) and other species, but not for atroviolaceum.  A. atroviolaceum should have a more evenly spherical shape.  I scanned a photo from Brian Mathew's "A Review of Allium section Allium" for comparison.

2.  Regarding plant size, flower size, and inflorescence size, these vary widely, A. rotundum and subspecies have flower heads 1-4 cm (sometimes 5 cm) in diameter, atroviolaceum flower heads 2.5-3 cm (sometimes to 6 cm) diameter.

3.  A. atroviolaceum has stamens and anthers clearly exserted (can't see these on your plant, just the cusped tips of the stamens barely equalling to slightly exceeded the tepals (more similar to A. rotundum and ssp).  

4.  Stamen color, it is a hallmark of A. rotundum and ssp, and other Alliums in section Allium, to have the stamen cusps equally the tepals or just barely exserted, looking prominent because they are white or very pale, giving each floret a white "highlight" when the flower opens.  In atroviolaceum, the stamens are darker and do not have this "white eye" sort of effect, and the stems and anthers are well exserted.

5.  Check around the base of the stems, you can even push away a bit of dirt to reveal the shallow bulbs, what color are the bulblets?  They are dark brown to blackish purple in rotundum, yellowish brown in A. atroviolaceum.

To help compare the two, I put your photo side by side with the photo of Allium atroviolaceum from the mnogoletnik.narod.ru website; I think the differences become more evident when photos can be compared in this way.

By the way, the photo of Allium fuscoviolaceum shows an outstanding allium species, would like to try that one!
http://mnogoletnik.narod.ru/Allium/pages/Allium_fuscoviolaceum.html

Also for comparison, here are the two Allium rotundum and Allium rotundeum ssp. waldsteinii photo links on the mnogoletnik.narod.ru web site, they illustrate quite well the trademark or characteristic "white eyelashed" center to the open florets, which one sees with species like A. rotundum and ssp, and other species like erubescens.  The photo of Allium rotundum on that site, looks somewhat uncharacteristic, being lighter color and more open than normal.
Allium rotundum on the mnogoletnik.narod.ru site (does not look like typical A. rotundum)
http://mnogoletnik.narod.ru/Allium/pages/Allium_rotundum.html
Allium rotundum ssp. waldsteinii on the mnogoletnik.narod.ru site
http://mnogoletnik.narod.ru/Allium/pages/Allium_waldsteinii.html

And lastly I upload a photo of my A. rotundum from a number of years back, sadly I have lost all my plants over the years, I had several forms, but still have A. rotundum ssp. jajlae.  Let us know what color the bulbils are?  Also, I'm not sure how close a photo your camera can get for closeup shots, but a closer look at the stamens/anthers and style would be useful.

[Stephenb]

Many thanks for your help with my tuberosum/ramosum pictures Oleg and Mark. Mark: yes, I would very much appreciate if you could explain your conclusion. The last 3 all have similar coloured reddish mid-veins. I am also suprised to see tuberosum in Uppsala as I didn't think it was hardy enough for that area of Sweden. It is also a much bigger plant than other tuberosums I've seen. However, I know that there are a lot of cultivars, so I guess it is form-rich. For example, here's a picture of it used as a low hedge around the herb garden at RHS Rosemoor in the UK (the picture was taken late September):

[Stephenb]

Allium rotundum seed I received from Sergey Banketov in the Caucasus in 2006  and I have one plant which is just about to flower for the first time. It looks very like Allium scorodoprasum so far. In my recent Norwegian flora, it is a ssp of scorodoprasum (found very occasionally as an introduced plant).  We are talking about the same plant aren't we?

[fermi de Sousa]

Nice to see all these summer alliums!
The only one in flower here at present is Allium chamaemoly!



cheers
fermi

[TheOnionMan]

Allium rotundum seed I received from Sergey Banketov in the Caucasus in 2006  and I have one plant which is just about to flower for the first time. It looks very like Allium scorodoprasum so far. In my recent Norwegian flora, it is a ssp of scorodoprasum (found very occasionally as an introduced plant).  We are talking about the same plant aren't we?

Yes, we're talking about the same plant.  The authority on Allium section Allium (the "drumstick" alliums) is without a doubt Brian Mathew, so I put a lot of weight on his exemplary monograph "A Review of Allium section Allium" published in 1996, that removed the combination A. scorodoprasum ssp. rotundum and raised it to species status as A. rotundum, with the subspecies jajlae and waldsteinii following suit.  Most taxonomic accounts have followed this.

[TheOnionMan]

Nice to see all these summer alliums!
The only one in flower here at present is Allium chamaemoly!

cheers
fermi

This one is not hardy for me here, it blooms so late (December in the Northern Hemisphere) that it doesn't really have the ability to open its flowers.  I had received bulbs and only grew it one season, I kept a makeshift cloche over the plant to keep it from freezing too hard, and actually got to see the blooms, but it's not for this climate.

[TheOnionMan]

Many thanks for your help with my tuberosum/ramosum pictures Oleg and Mark. Mark: yes, I would very much appreciate if you could explain your conclusion. The last 3 all have similar coloured reddish mid-veins. I am also suprised to see tuberosum in Uppsala as I didn't think it was hardy enough for that area of Sweden. It is also a much bigger plant than other tuberosums I've seen. However, I know that there are a lot of cultivars, so I guess it is form-rich. For example, here's a picture of it used as a low hedge around the herb garden at RHS Rosemoor in the UK (the picture was taken late September):

Some Allium tuberosum forms also show red midveins, I've grown numerous forms and preferred those that had that characteristic.  Here's a quick summary of the differences:

Allium ramosum generally flowers earlier, late spring to early summer, versus A. tuberosum that typically flowers late summer and into the fall.  A. ramosum flowers show greater difference in inner/outer tepals (inner tepals much narrower), tending to have longer lanceolate to oblong tepals, held in an open campanulate fashion, as opposed to A. tuberosum that has more uniformly wider, ovate-oblong shorter tepals, less differentiation between inner/outer tepals, making a more even rosette shape floret, the starry flowers opening flat, not the slightest bit campanulate.  Allium ramosum has channeled fistulose leaves, mostly apparent in the lower portion of the leaves.  They are not inflated and as obviously fistulose (hollow) as in chives, but fistulose they are.  The leaves are channeled in cross-section, and if a leaf is cut off near the base, one can feel the "give" when squeezing the partially hollow leaves, and one  can peel the front face of the leaf from the back portion, to confirm the fistulose characteristic.  Allium tuberosum on the other hand has flat leaves that are solid (not fistulose).

Not mentioned in the keys, but A. ramosum flowers last a normal time, then eventually go over to seed capsules. On the other hand, Allium tuberosum has an undesirable characteristic where it is exceedingly quick to start producing seed, so one gets flower heads that have both new flowers and swelling ovaries and developing capsules all at the same time during late anthesis.  Its propensity to seed so quickly (I believe the species is apomictic) is why it can become such a pest species, not to mention spoiling the look of the flowers.  There are bulb differences too, I hope to show a photo of both to show the differences.

[olegKon]

Mark, thanks for the professional explanation of the difference between Allium rotundum and A.atroviolaceum. You seem to be right. As for Alliun fuscoviolaceum I used to have it from the same souce but I lost it last year for I don't know what reason. It is an exaptional thing. A drumstick allium, but the colour!!! Something close (darker as far as I remember) to A.atropurpureum.
Will look at the bulbs of my A.rotundum/atroviolaceum today
Thanks again

[Stephenb]

Mark: Appreciate your tuberosum/ramosum description. This will be very helpful - I remember using Flora of China and checking the fistulose leaves, but ending up not certain. Your added details will get me there... Thanks.

[TheOnionMan]

Mark: Appreciate your tuberosum/ramosum description. This will be very helpful - I remember using Flora of China and checking the fistulose leaves, but ending up not certain. Your added details will get me there... Thanks.

Stephen, I had to look around hard to find any Allium tuberosum (my tuberosum-eradication plan must be working), but did find a small clump, so uprooted it and a piece of A. ramosum, washed off the soil, to make the comparison.

1    Allium ramosum flower head, showing the fastigiate inflorescence and openly campanulate florets.  Will not have any tuberosum for many weeks yet for comparison.

2    leaf cross-sections, Allium ramosum on the left (cut with sharp knife for better visibility on the fistulose leaves, if torn by hand or dull clippers, the fistulose character is not so obvious when the leaf crushes), A. tuberosum on right.  The leaves on tuberosum are flat, but closer to the base they can be slightly channeled, as seen in the photo.

3    Plant with bulbs and roots; A. tuberosum on the left, A. ramosum on the right.

4    Close up of bulbs and roots; A. tuberosum on left, A. ramosum on right.  Allium tuberosum has multiple growth points attached, whereas A. ramosum has one growth point per bulb.  Allium tuberosum connected to diagonally descending rhizome; with A. ramosum older portions of the vertical rihizome at the bottom tend to rot off.  Both species have very strong entwining root systems.