Allium 2010

[TheOnionMan]

This one came from Sergey Banketov in the Caucasus as Allium rotundum (wild seed), sowed spring 2007:
 

Stephen, an interesting onion.  I've gone through the keys in Mathew's A Review of Allium Section Allium.  Even without knowing the bulb characteristics, I think I can narrow down the species, although will ask you to provide the following: with (in mm) of the leaves, are the leaves smooth edged or minutely scabrid (do the "feel" test).  That being said, I always repeat my mantra that keying species in the look-alike Allium section Allium is *very difficult*.  Knowing the provenance of the plant helps immensely.

I have it narrowed the following possibilities in order of likelihood:  A. ponticum, A. rotundum ssp. jajlae, A. macrochaetum.  I notice the heads are looser than is typical for A. rotundum, and the flower color would rule out typical rotundum although could fit for the pinkish-violet A. rotundum ssp. jajlae.  For me however, it comes closest to Allium ponticum.

A species put into synonymy with the Caucasian A. ponticum is A. gracilescens, only separated from A. ponticum by the reputed lighter rose color, although the synonymy of that species seems to be subject to further study.  If ponticum and gracilescens are found to be conspecific, then A. gracilescens would take priority.  Brian Mathew says of Allium ponticum "clearly very closely allied to A. rotundum and further studies are desirable in order to ascertain whether the two can be satisfactorily distinguished".

[gote]

I am not quite sure if these pics are 'Allium' or 'Wildlife'
Anyway three pics of A. ovalifolium.
Cheers
Göte

[Stephenb]

Stephan, an interesting onion.  I've gone through the keys in Mathew's A Review of Allium Section Allium.  Even without knowing the bulb characteristics, I think I can narrow down the species, although will ask you to provide the following: with (in mm) of the leaves, are the leaves smooth edged or minutely scabrid (do the "feel" test).  That being said, I always repeat my mantra that keying species in the lool-alike Allium section Allium is *very difficult*.  Knowing the provenance of the plant helps immensely.

Thanks for having a look at this one for me! The leaves are about 4-5 mm wide and through a magnifying glass I can indeed see minute widely spaced hair like structures on the edge.

[Graham Catlow]

The last of my Alliums this year.

Allium senescens montanum ssp. glaucum
The first photo was taken in the shade as it produced a better photo.

Graham

[Stephenb]

I am not quite sure if these pics are 'Allium' or 'Wildlife'
Anyway three pics of A. ovalifolium.
Cheers
Göte

Nice to see your ovalifoliums survived last winter!

[Stephenb]

This one came from Sergey Banketov in the Caucasus as Allium rotundum (wild seed), sowed spring 2007:
 

I have it narrowed the following possibilities in order of likelihood:  A. ponticum, A. rotundum ssp. jajlae, A. macrochaetum.  I notice the heads are looser than is typical for A. rotundum, and the flower color would rule out typical rotundum although could fit for the pinkish-violet A. rotundum ssp. jajlae.  For me however, it comes closest to Allium ponticum.

Hi again, Mark

I was a bit surprised you mentioned jajlae as a possible candidate for my "Allium rotundum". I have two other plants which I received as Allium scorodoprasum spp jajlae (pictures 1 to 5) and Allium scorodoprasum ssp rotundum (6 to and both have very compact flower heads (unlike my other "rotundum")

Picture 9 shows the two together today (rotundum on the left and jajlae on the right).

Picture 10 shows one of my A. scorodoprasum ssp scorodoprasum plants which has formed abnormally large bulbils.

So, what do I have? I reckon they are the same. How do you separate rotundum and jajlae?

Thanks in advance.

Stephen

[TheOnionMan]

Hi again, Mark

I was a bit surprised you mentioned jajlae as a possible candidate for my "Allium rotundum". I have two other plants which I received as Allium scorodoprasum spp jajlae (pictures 1 to 5) and Allium scorodoprasum ssp rotundum (6 to and both have very compact flower heads (unlike my other "rotundum")

Picture 9 shows the two together today (rotundum on the left and jajlae on the right).
Picture 10 shows one of my A. scorodoprasum ssp scorodoprasum plants which has formed abnormally large bulbils.
So, what do I have? I reckon they are the same. How do you separate rotundum and jajlae?

Thanks in advance.

Stephen

Stephen, regarding rotundum, it does stand as it's own species separate from A. scorodoprasum, treated as such by none other than Brian Mathew in his A Review of Allium Section Allium.  Yes, both A. rotundum and A. rotundum ssp. jajlae typically have tight "drumstick" heads of bloom, so as I noted on your mystery "Caucasus rotundum" it looks more open and loose flowered than typical.  Of course, it could be that our collective impression on A. rotundum is based on one or two clones widely mass-produced in cultivation, and the true range of the variability of a species is much greater than we imagine, as we saw with A. cristophii and karataviense earlier in this thread.

The difference between A. rotundum ssp. rotundum, ssp. jajlae, and ssp. waldsteinii, is totally based on color of the tepals, which I'm always highly suspicious of, as color rarely seems a good taxonomic determinant characteristic solely on its own.  Be that as it may, ssp. rotundum has outer tepals deep purple and inner tepals paler and with white margin, ssp. jajlae is uniformly pink or pinkish violet, and ssp. waldsteinii is uniformly dark purple throughout.

I still think your mystery rotundum might be A. ponticum.  The two you just showed, rotundum ssp. jajlae looks correct, your rotundum is at late anthesis so it's hard to tell, could also be ssp. jajlae... doesn't look dark enough to be rotundum. Plants I grew as A. rotundum were typically a very deep red-purple color... an old pic uploaded to show my plants (which I'm embarrassed to admit I have lost!).

[TheOnionMan]

Göte, your Allium ovalifolium plants look very healthy and happy, growing more robustly than my single bulb, which remains a single bulb after 7 years, and never sets seed .  What is the source of your form?  The foliage on your plants also looks much more robust than on mine.  What sort of soil and light conditions is it growing in?  You're right about the "wildlife", my allium garden is quite literally "abuzz" with thousands of bees, wasps, and butterflies.

Graham, that's a handsome short-leaved form of A. senescens ssp. glaucum; I'm surprised yours is flowering so early!  Here it is typically a September blooming plant.  This species is widely variable in cultivation, as most are seed grown, and since it hybridizes readily, you can get all sorts of plants and forms.

[TheOnionMan]

Could this be beesianum (I got it as this some years ago)?

Hi Stephen, it could be A. beesianum... what's the length of the tepals?  Hopefully the length is still measurable, you posted this 12 days ago and I've been very slow in replying.  If the tepals are 11-17 mm, then it'll match the characteristic for A. beesianum, if 10 mm or shorter, it'll key to sikkimense.

Link to your photo as a reminder of what we're discussing:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg162471#msg162471

[TheOnionMan]

I've been going through my Allium pictures taken over the last few weeks, so here's the first. A plant I received from two sources in Tromsø last summer as Allium cyanthus (not valid name) and it's not Allium cyaneum. A form of sikkimense I presume?

Stephen, the blue Allium you show (with invalid name of A. "cyanthus") is truly an enigma, and a classic example of how the Allium treatment in Flora of China does not come close to adequately describing and identifying Allium material from China.  It probably does indeed come closest to a form of A. sikkimense, or even A. beesianum if the tepals are very long, but those long sharply acute tepals are completely unique and not at all like sikkimense or beesianum, never seen anything quite like it (seed: hint hint).  Is it possible to find out any further information about the source or provenance of this unique form?

Since I'm late responding to this, to give context, here is the link to the original posting:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg162470#msg162470

[Stephenb]

Could this be beesianum (I got it as this some years ago)?

Hi Stephen, it could be A. beesianum... what's the length of the tepals?  Hopefully the length is still measurable, you posted this 12 days ago and I've been very slow in replying.  If the tepals are 11-17 mm, then it'll match the characteristic for A. beesianum, if 10 mm or shorter, it'll key to sikkimense.

Link to your photo as a reminder of what we're discussing:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg162471#msg162471

9mm is the most I can stretch it to, so sikkimense it seems! Thanks....

[Stephenb]

I've been going through my Allium pictures taken over the last few weeks, so here's the first. A plant I received from two sources in Tromsø last summer as Allium cyanthus (not valid name) and it's not Allium cyaneum. A form of sikkimense I presume?

Stephen, the blue Allium you show (with invalid name of A. "cyanthus") is truly an enigma, and a classic example of how the Allium treatment in Flora of China does not come close to adequately describing and identifying Allium material from China.  It probably does indeed come closest to a form of A. sikkimense, or even A. beesianum if the tepals are very long, but those long sharply acute tepals are completely unique and not at all like sikkimense or beesianum, never seen anything quite like it (seed: hint hint).  Is it possible to find out any further information about the source or provenance of this unique form?

Since I'm late responding to this, to give context, here is the link to the original posting:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg162470#msg162470

First, you don't need to apologise for your lateness!!

Yes, the tepals are long - 16mm. I'll contact the Botanics in Tromsø who gave it to me and ask if they have accession data for it. Yes, I'll look out for seed for you!

[Stephenb]

This is another Allium spp. Ex-Magnar Aspaker, this one from the Carpathian Mountains. It flowered for the first time a couple of weeks ago. I wondered if it could be Allium ericetorum - it is very similar. I have ericetorum in a different part of the garden, but it is only just coming into flower.

Pictures 1 to 4 are the mystery plant
5-6 are my Allium ericetorum (the first picture taken yesterday, the second from last year) - notice the long bract missing from the mystery plant.

[TheOnionMan]

This is another Allium spp. Ex-Magnar Aspaker, this one from the Carpathian Mountains. It flowered for the first time a couple of weeks ago. I wondered if it could be Allium ericetorum - it is very similar. I have ericetorum in a different part of the garden, but it is only just coming into flower.

Pictures 1 to 4 are the mystery plant
5-6 are my Allium ericetorum (the first picture taken yesterday, the second from last year) - notice the long bract missing from the mystery plant.

Looks like A. ericetorum to me as well (both forms).  I have grown several forms in the past, and all have been somewhat similar.  I have since lost my plants.  However, I am showing a few photos taken this summer at a friend's garden nearby, where she has A. ericetorum and a nice pink A. saxatile form growing (both originally from me).  Her plants are photogenic as they back up to a moss-covered rock outcropping.  I'll have to get some pieces of Allium ericetorum back from her.

[TheOnionMan]

The saga of Allium 'Hair' continues (reference my earlier post and Stephenb's detailed response)
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg161721#msg161721

Stephen, such unusual circumstances regarding your arrival at Heathrow and Hampden Court!  It is probably best you were unaware of the terrible events at the time. Regarding the display of Allium 'Hair' at Hampden Court, I must say it looks most whimsical. Unusual that it was first attributed to A. oleraceum, but surely that's all been left behind, as a Google search comes up dry on Allium oleraceum 'Hair' and I haven't found links indicating this connection.  There are however, a gazillion links ascribing the species to either sphaerocephalon or vineale (almost equally split), and a preponderance of those that make no reference to a species at all.  It would be so much easier if such selections arising from a known species, be named to indicate the species... there is a definite trend to name and market such findlings without any species indication, which exacerbates the confusion.

So, once again I spend some time doing an extensive google search on Allium 'Hair', and certain observations soon come to light.  First, there is so much misinformation out there, often the same language, the exact same wording, the same misunderstanding and misstatements gets parroted over and over again.  Of the numerous sites visited that include photos of Allium 'Hair', 2 or 3 identical photos get re-used all over the place.  Looking at the different photos of Allium 'Hair', where different photos could be found, tells me that some items labeled as A.'Hair' are not the same species or entity, obviously confusion reigns. The misinformation out there is getting to the point, that the name 'Hair Allium' is even becoming synonymous with regular Allium vineale!

Stephen, you mention that the hairiness of 'Hair' may depend on the growing environment, and I believe that may be true; sufficient moisture is needed at late anthesis to induce the bulbils to sprout, otherwise in a dry environment the bulbils simply drop with the so-called "hair" unsprouted (hair in this context = bulbils sprouting with leaf shoots).  I find it rather surprising, that after visiting perhaps 100 web sites that describe or offer Allium 'Hair', not one (I repeat, NOT ONE) site mentions that the flowers are actually replaced by bulbils (although sometimes a few regular flower buds appear).  Only one site out of all those visited, actually mentions that the flowers don't have petals, but are actually leaves (still, no mention of the fact one is looking at bulbils that are sprouting), I have given credit to this ultra rare occurrence below.

So, to finish here, yet another assemblage of URLs depicting the mysterious entity known as Allium 'Hair'.  The links demonstrate the misinformation, some are humorous.  It seems that the concept of a plant with bulbils in the inflorescence, while very common, sparks a flurry of misunderstanding, with descriptions of "fragrant petals", flowers and seed pods, even though these are nonexistant.  It is surprising too, because bulbilliferous alliums, such as "Egyptian Onions" or "Top Onions", have been part of the cultivated onion world for many centuries.

Allium sphaerocephalon 'Hair' (a butt-ugly cultivar)
http://www.paghat.com/alliumhair.html

Allium sphaerocephalon 'Hair'
http://blog.jmmds.com/2009/09/25/ericas-oddballs-the-alliums/

Allium sphaerocephalon 'Hair' (the "hair" looks mint-color enhanced here)
http://thebloomingauction.com/detail.asp?id=153068&n=ALLIUM-HAIR-12-BULBS

...here's a link that says Allium 'Hair' is Allium pulchellum!
http://www.bloomingbulb.com/p-48689-allium-hair.aspx

Allium vineale 'Hair'
http://www.pcnijssen.nl/shop/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=1109

Allium vineale 'Hair'
http://www.trecanna.com/showdetails.asp?id=164

Allium vineale 'Hair'
http://www.flickr.com/photos/35817774@N07/3343106630/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/35817774@N07/3343106458/

Lots of flower buds in this one:
http://www.botanus.com/products/Allium-%27Hair%27.html

in this photo, one can see the spathe in process of splitting
http://brecks.com/product.asp?pn=67499&sid=704127&eid=&bhcd2=1282516820

why do most sites refer to the unusual "flowers"  Maybe they are unusual, because they ARE NOT flowers!

More favorite Allium hairations:
===============================

green flowers followed by decorative seed pods

Allium ‘Hair Allium’

hair allium 'hair' - Allium vineale

Allium miniature 'Hair'
http://www.adrbulbs.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/bulbs.plantDetail/plant_id/386/index.htm

...and the winner is, the first site out of a hundred or more looked at that understands these are not petals but are leaves:
http://www.bhg.com/gardening/plant-dictionary/bulb/allium/
Hair' allium - Allium 'Hair' is the most unique allium around. Rather than petals, this plant bears spidery green leaves atop its 18-inch-tall stems in late spring. Zones 4-8