Allium 2010

[Stephenb]

Here's my Allium cyaneum (from another gardener in this area - she noted she wasn't sure of its identity):

 

[TheOnionMan]

Here's my Allium cyaneum (from another gardener in this area - she noted she wasn't sure of its identity):

ding ding ding, a winner here... give this man a cupie doll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kewpie_doll_%28toy%29)

Yes Stephen, this is A. cyaneum!  Is the second shot a different form, or the same?  Good clear detail on those two flower heads.

[Stephenb]

Same plant and I can also see the exserted stamens on this one at high resolution.

If I'd realised this was the prize, I wouldn't have entered

[Ray]

Hi Mark thanks for the reply,the next time I catch up with this person I will ask him were he got this information.bye Ray

[arisaema]

From Chen Yi, presumably another A. sikkimense? It's much nicer and larger-flowered than my other two forms, at least...

[arisaema]

Received as Allium forrestii from one of the Czechs... Isn't it supposed to be more red than this?

[TheOnionMan]

From Chen Yi, presumably another A. sikkimense? It's much nicer and larger-flowered than my other two forms, at least...

Very nice form!  Yes, it is variable, and a number of forms exist in cultivation, and now, this Chen Yi collected form.  The close-up showing the mouth of the flower and ends of the tepals, shows a diagnostic characteristic... the denticulate ends to the tepals. The other species that looks like sikkimense is beesianum, but A. beesianum has smooth ends to the tepals.  The dark insides to the flowers are dramatic in your plant.

Received as Allium forrestii from one of the Czechs... Isn't it supposed to be more red than this?

Ooh, this is one I have wanted for a long time, I love these small grassy Chinese species.  Yours looks correct.  The flower color is variable, in FOC described as "purple to dark purple", although I believe more variable than that, and includes red colors.  Sampson Clay in the rock gardening tome "The Present Day Rock Garden", complement to Reginald Farrer's "The English Rock Garden", says of Allium forrestii "remarkable deep magenta purple or claret-red flowers".  He goes on to say "It is very variable, particularly in height, and some of the dwarf 2- to 6-inch forms are really desirable".  This species is closely related to A. kingdonii.

The Flora of China entry on A. forrestii has added 5 photo links as part of the "Photos by The Biodiversity of the Hengduan Mountains Project".  There are contributions by two photographers, Susan Kelley and David Boufford.
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200027479

Please Note: 2 of the 5 FOC photos of A. forrestii are incorrectly identified!  Photos 2 & 3 by David Boufford look correct, and closely resemble your plant... it shows a distinctly red color flower.  Photos 1 & 4 by Susan Kelley are incorrect, they show an Allium species with pinched flowers and long exserted stamens (stamens are not exserted in A. forrestii), and based on exserted stamens that reflex outwards, it is most likely A. przewalskianum, or even a depauperate form of A. carolinianum that also shows such stamen characteristics.  Photo 5 looks closer to A. forrestii in a lighter pinkish-purple color.

[TheOnionMan]

To add to the Allium sikkimense and beesianum differentiation, I have ignored another species, A. yuanum, because while it is very close to sikkimense, I have never received anything by this name, nor found plants that exactly matches this species in terms of tepal characteristics.  It is separated from A. sikkimense on several minor points, slight tepal differences, and the leaves are abaxially keeled.

From the FOC key on these two species:
Allium yuanum    - perianth segments acuminate at apex, equal, irregularly denticulate at margin, rarely outer ones entire; leaves abaxially keeled, usually twisted when dry.

Allium sikkimense - perianth segments obtuse at apex, inner ones longer and wider than outer, only inner ones irregularly denticulate at margin; leaves flat.
     
FOC on Allium yuanum
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200027554
FOC drawing comparing both A. sikkimense and yuanum:
http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=60232&flora_id=2

Here's a link on Asianflora.com of purported Allium yuanum.  A number of Allium photos on their site are misnamed, but this one is identified as photographed in Sichuan, China... good photos showing a beautiful blue allium.
http://www.asianflora.com/Alliaceae/Allium-yuanum.htm

It is possible I suppose, that some of what people grow as A. sikkimense could be A. yuanum.  Oniony food for thought.

(PS. Arisaema:  your blue Chen Yi Allium seems definitely to be A. sikkimense, not yuanum, I can clearly see that the inner tepals on your plant are longer than the outer tepals).

     

[arisaema]

Thanks for confirming A. forrestii, I'll just have to keep looking for a good, red form. I'm happy to send you a couple of bulbs with the Polygonatum, it's nice, but not that nice

Just to add to the confusion: The Chen Yi plant has leaves that are clearly keeled, while my two clones of "sikkimense" both have flat leaves. Interestingly the illustration shows the complete opposite of what's mentioned in the key and species description - illustration #2 closely match my plant, showing shorter outer tepals and filaments widening at the base. Did something get lost in translation? 

[arisaema]

Here are two Chinese herbarium specimens showing A. yuanum and A. sikkimense, more can be found in the links below.

A. yuanum 2
A. sikkimense 2 3 4 5

You certainly did give my some oniony food for thought...

[arisaema]

The original descriptions in the Flora Reipublicae Popularis Sinicae:

A. yuanum
A. sikkimense

If nothing else it clearly shows that illustrations #2 and #5 in the English translation have been switched...

Also, the description and illustration for A. sikkimense from the Flora of Qinling.

[TheOnionMan]

The original descriptions in the Flora Reipublicae Popularis Sinicae:

A. yuanum
A. sikkimense

If nothing else it clearly shows that illustrations #2 and #5 in the English translation have been switched...

Also, the description and illustration for A. sikkimense from the Flora of Qinling.

I hadn't noticed before, I think you found a mistake; I believe that when they recomposed separate drawings from Flora Reipublicae Popularis Sinicae of Allium sikkimense and A. yuanum, they must have simply relabeled the tepal diagram incorrectly... I do not believe that it was a deliberate change of scientific heart to make the switch, just a mistake.  I hadn't noticed this before, as I almost never go back to Flora Reipublicae Popularis Sinicae anymore, with the FOC online and so handy.  Here's a screen capture putting it all together (Maggi, this will be extra wide and require scrolling, but necessary, as are the herbarium specimen views ).

In the herbarium links above (by the way, thanks for posting these), I really can't draw any conclusions from them, just not high enough resolution with which to zoom in REALLY CLOSE to see the tepal shapes... I have a hard time with these old eyes to determine which are inner and outer tepals on those images, even the higher res ones that can be clicked on.  The only thing I get an impression of, is that yuanum has more sharply acute tepals (at least upon drying).  Frankly, my gut feeling is that A. yuanum is too narrowly defined as a "species" from A. sikkimense. 

I have some Alliums collected by Darrell Probst, and in each case when I key them, they do not fit neatly into any one species. Do they represent a new species, or just WAY MORE variation than attributed for that species?  For example, there's a small blue flowered one; when forced it will key to A. cyaneum (one of the few blue-flowered species with long exserted stamens), yet the growth is so different from A. cyaneum, that side by side you'd say they cannot possible be the same species.  I include a photo showing the flowers, but you can't see the long, decumbent finally-upturned flower stems, the leaves mostly sheathing these long wiry flower stems, unlike the mostly basal thread-thin leaves of cyaneum.  So, does Darrell's plant represent a new species, or do we try and hammer this square peg into a round existing FOC species hole, and call it A. cyaneum?  Personally, I think it is an undescribed species    With the sikkimense/yuanum situation, the two "species" are too narrowly defined, and it's quite possible to find plants with some of both characteristics... one reason why I hesitated to even mention "yuanum" initially, it may as well be just one species.

[arisaema]

Yes, I assumed they had made a mistake as well, it's not the first time... Another problem I've noticed (with Nomocharis) is that they don't always amend the keys when reducing plants into synonyms.

Re: the lovely A. aff. cyaneum - have you checked the descriptions of the two synonyms listed: Allium hugonianum and A. szechuanicum?

[Stephenb]

Thanks for confirming A. forrestii, I'll just have to keep looking for a good, red form. I'm happy to send you a couple of bulbs with the Polygonatum, it's nice, but not that nice

My Allium forrestii has just flowered and definitely isn't as yours is correct! Mine looks like Chives.....

[Stephenb]

I mentioned a dwarf cernuum the other day. I received it as SRGC seed 140 in January 2009. It's just in flower and it doesn't look like cernuum unfortunately. I also sowed A. wallichii the same day (SRGC seed 197) and this also seems to be the same plant and I can't see how I could have mixed the two up, but it's not impossible. I thought initially it was Allium cyathophorum farreri (a well-known impostor I believe) but comparing with my old farreri I see it's different. I'll take a picture when the flowers are out properly.

I'm now getting a bit fed up with farreri - The dwarf cernuum is definitely this, as is the wallichii I mentioned above. Since then I have 2(!) more farreris!  Allium delicatulum (SRGC seed) and Allium sibthorpianum (AGS). I also recieved farreri as A. roseum a few years ago...