Allium 2010

[TheOnionMan]

Here is my native Allium list. Quite lots! It is still very hard for me (province Istanbul anf Kırklareli NW. corner of TR.)

[McMark:  list trimmed down to just a few species to discuss]
Allium flavum subsp. flavum var. minus
Allium jubatum
Allium paniculatum subsp. villosulum
Allium peroninianum
Allium rhodopeum subsp. turcicum
Allium wiedemannianum
 

Ibrahim, that's an impressive list of species you are growing that grow in your native area.  I narrowed down you list to a few I want to comment on.

I once grew Allium flavum subsp. flavum var. minus from the MacPhail & Watson Expedition to Turkey back in the 1970s; it was unlike any form of "minus" that goes around in the seed exchanges, this was a true dwarf, with fat stubby stem to 5-6 cm tall, and waxy yellows flowers tinged olive green, with purple stamens.  It was a difficult slow grower and eventually died.

Brian Mathew, in his "A Review of Allium section Allium", describes the flowers of Allium jubatum, based on a plant grown at Kew, as "smelling of dung", but adds that he's not sure how consistent this feature is within the species as a whole. Looks like it would be a good allium similar to a small A. rotundum.

On Allium paniculatum subsp. villosulum, I've always wanted to see the villous form of this widespread species.  

Allium peroninianum is a section Bevispatha Allium, along the lines of A. cupanii.  From the same Mac&W collection, I grew for nearly 25 years A. cupanii ssp. hirtovaginatum, but sadly lost it dues to encroachment by weeds in some years of garden neglect.  Interesting little surprise summer bloomers, aren't they.  I've not seen peroninianum.

Janis Ruksans showed me a photograph of Allium rhodopeum subsp. turcicum, a species he once grew, what a charmer that one is... it is one that should get into general horticulture.

And last, Allium wiedemannianum is another in that confusing group of small purplish-mauve alliums from Turkey, all delightful miniature species.  

Thanks for sharing your photos and enthusiasm for your native Turkish Alliums, there are lots of them in Turkey, perhaps 150 or more species.  We welcome seeing any others that you might find in your travels or those that are flowering in the garden.

[Stephenb]

If you have time for another one I have some better pictures of Magnar's Caucasus-species.

Arisaema, excellent set of diagnostic photos!  Isn't this the same Allium that we've seen on this forum before, a large flowering patch of lovely light pink - dark pink striped flowers?  I believe it is.  Wasn't able to pinpoint an ID on it before, but the detail photos sure help.  The difficulty here is that the Caucasus cover a number of regions and several countries, and thus different floras, some of which are not generally accessible, if even they exist.  There is some possible species coverage with adjacent countries and their floras (Flora of Turkey, Flora of Iran, Flora of the USSR), but I know for example a number of new species are described in such places as Armenia, and who knows about tghe taxonomic state of affairs in Georgia and Azerbaijan.  I'll see what I can come up with; although may forward this to Dr. Reinhard Fritsch and Kurt Vickery to see if it "rings any bells" for either of them.

I too have this one, noticed it last night flowering for the first time (notice the bulbils)

[I.S.]

 Mark that was not my growing list!. That was the list of specieses which are growing by itself in my region. Which I have chance to see somewhere around me! But whenever I see this specieses I can share here.
 Mark, I have lots of things to profit from your experiences and knowledge on Alliums!.

[Stephenb]

The first time I've flowered Allium caeruleum, worth the wait - is this the standard form (with bulbils)?

[bulborum]

Sorry stephen

This is a bad clone
As with A. pulchellum in the nature they have most of the time bulbils
but there are good clones without bulbils
one of my suppliers has a good clone without bulbils
I can send you some in sept if you want

Roland

[TheOnionMan]

The first time I've flowered Allium caeruleum, worth the wait - is this the standard form (with bulbils)?

Stephen, a really good photo, I have never seen a form of A. caeruleum with so many bulbils, the form typically in cultivation from Dutch bulb suppliers will have just a few little bulbils in a head of mostly flowers.  The red bulbils contrasting with the intense blue, are rather pretty, although perhaps not as nice as a fully floriferous one.  The only form of A. caeruleum that I've grown that has no bulbils is the one I've shown before, a form from Denver Botanic Garden; I call it the "DBG form" although that is only my unofficial name given to this extra fine form.

This year it got so hot and dry, that most plants went into early dormancy, so only one bulb actually flowered (photo uploaded).  It set no seed.  But this form is also somewhat unique in producing more basal bulblets than other forms I've grown, and I've harvested many of these to try to find other spots in the garden where it will grow happily... thus far, it has only prospered in one of many locations tried.  Photos 2 & 3 show a bounty of bulblets collected from around the mother bulb and among the bulbcoat or tunics at the base of the stem just above the bulbs.

[Stephenb]

Thanks, Roland. Yes, although the contrast in colour between the bulbils and flowers is nice, I wondered if this would be a potential weedy Allium - I have both forms of pulchellum and have to keep a close eye on the form with bulbils...

[Stephenb]

Thanks Mark for your comments. Does my plant have darker coloured flowers than normal or is yours paler?

Are there other Alliums that produce so many basal bulblets - can't say I've seen this on any of mine...

[TheOnionMan]

Thanks Mark for your comments. Does my plant have darker coloured flowers than normal or is yours paler?

Are there other Alliums that produce so many basal bulblets - can't say I've seen this on any of mine...

I believe my plant (the DBG Allium caeruleum) has medium blue flowers, whereas yours and the forms I have encountered before, have darker blue flowers.  Save me a few of those red bulbils, I'd like to give that form a try   In my experience with Allium caeruleum, the forms with a few bulbils, I don't think I have ever seen a self-propagated plant from a bulbil, this species invariably dies out after a couple seasons, whereas the DBG form has been with me for the last 3 seasons so far, so that's a positive sign.  On the other hand, I fully concur, that the bulbilliferous Allium carinatum is one that must be closely watched or not grown at all, to avoid its invasive increase by spilled/dropped bulbils.

Other Allium species that can produce many basal bulblets are in Allium section Allium, though I have found the ones I have grown in that section, like A. rotundum, never to be a problem in my dry garden (in fact, I have lost A. rotundum).  I once grew (1980-1982) a splendid form of Allium caesium, a tall, large-flowered powder blue form, which produced buckets of "rollers"... bulblets at or above the basal stem.  Wish I still had this marvelous form, as even though it made so many surface bulblets, in a dryish garden they rarely meet with re-vegetating success, and I have never encountered such a fantastic form in 3 decades since.

[Stephenb]

No problem, I'll save some bulbils for you 

I'd forgotten that Allium scorodoprasum has bulblets as does some forms of Allium ampeloprasum,a lthough not many.

[bulborum]

What about the famous Hair
at least 100 bulbils in the flower head
must be a weed but sells as the devil
although I warn everybody

Roland

[TheOnionMan]

What about the famous Hair
at least 100 bulbils in the flower head
must be a weed but sells as the devil
although I warn everybody

Roland

Roland, I'm glad you mentioned Allium 'Hair'... if ever there was a silly plant selection, this is it!  Researching this thing on the web, it is attributed both to Allium vineale (the bulbilliferous Crow Garlic) and to a bulbilliferous form of Allium sphaerocephalon (var. bulbilliferum).  Judging from the photos I've seen, I would say it is Allium sphaerocephalon var. bulbilliferum, and not Allium vineale as attributed by so many nurseries.  Selling a totally bulbilliferous form of the invasive noxious weed like Allium vineale seems a questionable practice; if indeed 'Hair' is Allium sphaerocephalon var. bulbilliferum, the practice is not as egregious, although since there is no mention in any of the sales information I've seen, that all of those hairy "flowers" will drop off and root, most likely to become a nuisance and an invasive threat, the sale of this plant is still questionable.

Judging from the origin of this variety, supposedly found in a field of cultivated Alliums by a Dutch grower, it is highly unlikely it would be A. vineale as it is not mass produced, whereas A. sphaerocephalon is.  One web site describes it thusly: Something of a novelty, the Dutch grower named this for the green, tendril-like extrusions on the flowerhead. Already proving popular with flower arrangers & gardeners who like something a little different.

Coincidentally, found a web page showing both subject species; a fine photo of Allium caeruleum, and one of Allium 'Hair'.
http://awaytogarden.com/allium-oddballs-a-azureum-and-a-hair

The hilarious part is reading though various web site, seeing the salesmanship "lingo" (language), and other sites describing the "flowers"; apparently not understanding what they're looking at; here's a sampling:

will produce unique hairy flowers

the blooms are pleasantly fragrant

this plant is an easy and prolific addition to the garden

nothing short of extraordinary

its whispy blooms stand out all around the flowerhead

fragrance: scented leaves, habit: erect, spreading

'Hair' is a dramatic and unusual new allium with long, green (purple in the middle), hair-like petals in summer followed by decorative seed heads
 

I found one web site that described Allium 'Hair' as... a butt-ugly cultivar. 

[Stephenb]

Interesting post on Hair, Mark - this one has puzzled me for some time.

I think I first saw this at the Hampden Court Flower Show in London a few years back - I can actually date it pretty exactly as it was the day of the London bombings (7th July 2005). I had arrived at Heathrow early morning and the Underground station was just closing due to a major incident in London and was diverted to a double decker bus. I rang my Mum to say that I'd arrived safely and asked if she knew what the major incident was - I told her that I was going to take a bus. As we travelled across London, the bus was twice searched by security personnel. Spent a pleasant day at Hampden Court oblivious of what had happened. The mobile network was down most of the day, my mum and my family in Norway were really worried.... Anyway, I digress.

The first picture shows Hair at Hampden Court. At about the same time I had purchased a packet of Hair bulbils at RHS Wisley. It was accredited to Allium oleraceum and I remember that the packet assured the buyer that it wasn't as invasive as the species (I had spent 4 or 5 years clearing a bed of this thug prior to that). Well, I let RHS convince me to plant it and it was pretty invasive (if I hadn't decapitated it, it would have been as bad as the species). In fact, it could well have been the species as it didn't even have the Hairy appearance....

I then saw it in a garden in Northern Norway last spring (second picture) - she who was growing it had it as Allium vineale Hair.... She gave me a couple of bulbils but they didn't make it through the winter, so I was unable to check if it was vineale or oleraceum. I was therefore surprised to see that you have  it as Allium sphaerocephalon (NB! The RHS Plant Finder now has it as vineale:  http://apps.rhs.org.uk/rhsplantfinder/plantfinder2.asp?crit=allium+and+hair&Genus=Allium )

To add to the confusion, I had actually also obtained Allium sphaerocephalon Hair via the SRGC seed exchange and I planted these in the garden last autumn (curious to see if there were more than one Hair doing the rounds!). This one wasn't very hairy either and I also decided it was either vineale or oleraceum but never got round to checking it ( I removed the flower head to stop the bulbils spilling).

I wonder if the hairiness perhaps depends on some environmental  or growing conditions, mine being close to "bald" (they get little or no fertiliser, so perhaps that's why?).

[Stephenb]

I've been going through my Allium pictures taken over the last few weeks, so here's the first. A plant I received from two sources in Tromsø last summer as Allium cyanthus (not valid name) and it's not Allium cyaneum. A form of sikkimense I presume?

[Stephenb]

Could this be beesianum (I got it as this some years ago)?