Allium 2010

[Johan Nilson]

Here is another close up picture of the Allium sp..

[TheOnionMan]

I hope that someone could help me identify this Allium species which the first picture attached shows.

I has got some characters of Allium wallichii, but with much broader leaves (I think). I don't know what the flowers look like. It was growing on a steep west facing slope at 4200 meters in north Sikkim. The second picture shows Allium wallichii

Pictures where taken in northern Sikkim at the end of September.

Johan

Johan, an ID will be inconclusive without knowing what the flowers are like, but my guess is that it could be a broad-leaf form of Allium wallichii.  There is variability in leaf width.  In the Flora of China, the leaf description is "Leaves linear to oblong-lanceolate or lanceolate, shorter than to subequaling scape, (2–)5–20 mm wide, midvein distinct, base narrowed into a petiole or not."  I can see a distinct midvein in the photo, although I admit the leaves look wider than 2 cm.  The plant bears a strong resemblance to Allium wallichii in the Annotated Checklist of the Flowering Plants of Nepal, a neighboring territory.
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=110&taxon_id=200027548
Allium wallichii - large photo - wide leaves
http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=45436&flora_id=110

There are two varieties of A. wallichii, var wallichii, and var. platyphyllum (syn: Allium polyastrum var. platyphyllum).  Believe it or not, in spite of that name which would make one believe the wide-leaf variety is var. platyphyllum, that variety is separated from var. wallichii on two characteristics, the leaves narrowing to a petiole and the scape covered with leaf sheaths for about 1/2 its length.  In fact, both varieties can have wide leaves, and since A. wallichii var. wallichii is reported for Sikkim (var. platyphyllum is not) and in the photo it do not see the leaves sheathing the stem way up to the middle, if it is A. wallichii, it would be var. wallichii.
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200027548

I tried to find a good checklist of the plants of Sikkim, or Sikkim and neighboring territories (Bhutan, Nepal, Tibet), but couldn't find one; if you know of a good one, post it here.

Lastly, without knowing the flower characteristics, there are a few other wide-leaf Allium in the region (including neighboring territories) such as A. prattii. My guess remains: Allium wallichii var. wallichii.

[TheOnionMan]

Here is another close up picture of the Allium sp..

If the very dark color on the pedicels and swelling capsules is an indication, I'd say here again it matches A. wallichii, which is often dark red to near black-red color, or dark purple, including very dark ovaries and developing capsules.  Also, the upright fasciculate shape of the inflorescence is characteristic too.

[Pascal B]

I tried to find a good checklist of the plants of Sikkim, or Sikkim and neighboring territories (Bhutan, Nepal, Tibet), but couldn't find one; if you know of a good one, post it here.

Mark, no conventional checklist I am aware of but records of the flora of Sikkim were included in the Flora of Bhutan by Grierson and Long published by RBGE.

There is a Digital Flora of Bhutan which gives this for Allium wallichii (alas, without much details, only a picture of the flower): http://cms.cnr.edu.bt/plantdb/index.php?c=items&s=more&id=69
This for Allium macranthum: http://cms.cnr.edu.bt/plantdb/index.php?c=items&s=more&id=71
This for Allium fasciculatum: http://cms.cnr.edu.bt/plantdb/index.php?c=items&s=more&id=70

[TheOnionMan]

Thanks Pascal; previously I spent 30 minutes of so googling, found a few partial plant checklists for parts of Sikkim, but nothing very useful.

I'm fairly sure the plant is A. wallichii; even though the link you provide doesn't have much information, the photo of the inflorescence is upright and characteristic for the species.  Initially I too thought of the name A. fasciculatum, but that species has leaves only 2-5 mm wide, and looks rather different, see the photos here:
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200027475

I do not think it can be A. macranthum, one of my favorite allium species (I grow a form from Bhutan); too many characteristics don't match.

[Pascal B]

Mark, I just gave these 3 links because they were the only 3 species on the Digital Flora of Bhutan....

I am not even saying the pix are correct, for Arisaema they mention Arisaema elephas but show a picture of Arisaema speciosum and I know of at least 5 more Arisaema species for Bhutan than the website mentions. According to the FoB 10 Allium species in total for Bhutan.

I just looked in my copy of the Flora of Bhutan and from what I can tell they list the following species for Sikkim:
- Allium prattii (syn A. victorialis auct. non L. var. angustifolium Hook. f.)
- Allium sikkimense (syn. A. kansuense, A. tibeticum) but not in the area Johan has been
- Allium macranthum (syn. A. oviflorum)
- Allium cepa, with the specific note "Though unknown in a wild state, this widely cultivated species is probably derived from a Central Asiatic species, A. oschaninii O. Fedtschenko, but modified into a biennial during some 3000 years of cultivation."  

Given the reported area in Sikkim (Yuksum) not the area Johan took the picture, Johan took his pictures deep in N Sikkim.

- Allium wallichii (no distinction beyond species level, very widespread through Sikkim)
- Allium fasciculatum (syn. A. gageanum)

For this last species there is mention of "Specimens from.....Sikkim (Tang ka La N of Zelep La) agree in having tuberous roots but differ in having narrower leaves, lacking persistent basal bristles; umbels fewer-flowered and flowers greenish-yellow. They perhaps represent an undescribed species"

For A. wallichii the leaves are described as "Leaves 4-5, basal, keeled beneath, to 51 x 0.7-2.5 cm."  Additional info: flowering July-October, alt 2670-4420 m.

I just give this for your information because you apparantly don't have the Flora of Bhutan (Vol. 3 Part 1, p. 76-81), I know absolutely zip about Allium other than that I like them in my omelet...
Going through the descriptions in the FoB however I would say your assesment and Johan's initial identification seems correct.

[TheOnionMan]

For A. wallichii the leaves are described as "Leaves 4-5, basal, keeled beneath, to 51 x 0.7-2.5 cm."  Additional info: flowering July-October, alt 2670-4420 m.

I just give this for your information because you apparantly don't have the Flora of Bhutan (Vol. 3 Part 1, p. 76-81), I know absolutely zip about Allium other than that I like them in my omelet...
Going through the descriptions in the FoB however I would say your assesment and Johan's initial identification seems correct.

Thanks Pascal.  I like seeing the leaf description of A. wallichii you found, as it increases the leaf width to 2.5 cm (all other book parrot the same 20 mm or 2 cm).  The altitude and flowering time make sense too, as the pedicels and developing capsules are still "in the green" or with fresh color, with Johan mentioning it was in late September. 

No, I do not have Flora of Bhutan, wish I did.

[Johan Nilson]

Mark & Pascal,

For A. wallichii the leaves are described as "Leaves 4-5, basal, keeled beneath, to 51 x 0.7-2.5 cm."  Additional info: flowering July-October, alt 2670-4420 m.

I just give this for your information because you apparantly don't have the Flora of Bhutan (Vol. 3 Part 1, p. 76-81), I know absolutely zip about Allium other than that I like them in my omelet...
Going through the descriptions in the FoB however I would say your assesment and Johan's initial identification seems correct.

Thanks Pascal.  I like seeing the leaf description of A. wallichii you found, as it increases the leaf width to 2.5 cm (all other book parrot the same 20 mm or 2 cm).  The altitude and flowering time make sense too, as the pedicels and developing capsules are still "in the green" or with fresh color, with Johan mentioning it was in late September. 

Thanks alot for the help.

My first impression (at sight) of the plant was that it must be close to Allium wallichii. But what didn't fit in my mind of a typical Allium wallichii was the very broad leaves. I am quite sure that the leaves was as broad as 4-5 cm. I also think that it has autumn colors in a way that I havn't seen on other forms of wallichii before. 

For what I understand it must be a very broadleaved form of Allium wallichii.

[TheOnionMan]

Thanks alot for the help.

My first impression (at sight) of the plant was that it must be close to Allium wallichii. But what didn't fit in my mind of a typical Allium wallichii was the very broad leaves. I am quite sure that the leaves was as broad as 4-5 cm. I also think that it has autumn colors in a way that I havn't seen on other forms of wallichii before. 

For what I understand it must be a very broadleaved form of Allium wallichii.

Well, 4-5 cm is quite a jump in leaf size (width) compared to 2.5 cm.  As you suggest, maybe it is a very broadleaved form of Allium wallichii.

[TheOnionMan]

Update:  I have heard back from Dr. Nicolai Friesen, an expert in the genus Allium in such regions as Siberia and Mongolia, and he has identified Panayoti Kelaidis' Mongolian Allium as A. platyspathum... correction made to my original post.
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg173759#msg173759

Dr. Friesen has confirmed as correct my ID of A. vodopjanovae on Panayoti's small pink-flowered Mongolian allium
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg173576#msg173576

[Magnar]

Update:  remember the Allium species from the Caucasus, collected by Magnus Aspaker, a nice pink and white one that has been getting around... StephenB reminded me I was going to see if Dr. Reinhard Fritsch had any ideas about that one, see the diagnostic photos by forumist Arisaema here:
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg159787#msg159787

I sent off the photos recently to Dr. Fritsch, here's what he reports:
"Concerning the plant from Caucasus, Mr. Jaeger from Giessen (Germany) sent us pictures of the same taxon collected in Georgia, valley of Aragwi river. Some characters are  intermediate between A. kunthianum and A. karsianum, but the presence of bulbils in the inflorescence is strange. Mariam Agababian was also not sure about the identity."

I have uploaded the two photos; they do indeed look similar, although in our subject plant from Magnus, looking at Arisaema's photo, in the 2 photos of the inflorescence, I can't tell if I'm seeing bulbils in the dark shadows there, or just more buds... I'm going to assume they are bulbils.

Very interesting. My plant certainly have bulbils, and lots of them . I never found any seeds.