Crocus: October 2010

[Maggi Young]

Two crocus sieberi which have self seeded have different coloured stems, is this normal?

Mike

I think your Crocus are speciosus rather than sieberi, Mike.
Yes, the tubes can be quite different colours in different forms. Have a look at the recent International Rock Gardener     http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/logdir/2010Oct071286445910IRG9September2010.pdf

 to see some examples ( as well as elsewhere in this thread, of course!)

[Boyed]

Maggi,

your post reminded me of a question, that I wanted to ask earlier, but always forgot.

Who can explane to me why it is Crocus speciosus subsp. archibaldii and not artschibaldii.
As far as I know, according to International rules, plant names are written in Latin by the rules of Latin grammer. In Latin the letter combination /ch/ is a different sound, not present in English. I noticed this thing in number of new plant namings and I think it can cause misanderstanding and confusion among readers, because the same letter combination /ch/ has different pronunciation in different European languages as in English, French, German, Dutch ets. That is why the Latin is used.
And I also know that the sounds which are not present in Latin languages, are adopted from some European languages and agreed internationally. For exmaple,
English /ch/ in Latin is expressed /cz/ or /tsch/ (mostly in names);
English /sh/ - as /sch/ or rarely /sh/
French /j/ - as /zh/
German /z/ - as /tc/ or /tz/, or /c/, when it is preceded by (i), (e), (y).

The same is for corydalis ruksansii; why not rukschansii?

I think it is a serious matter.

[Anthony Darby]

If you want a word to sound "sch" then write "sch" not "s". Lichen is pronounced 'liken'; algae has a hard 'g'; colchicum is pronounced as in chicken in this country; ruksansii (after Jānis Rukšāns)  would have the 's' pronounced as in "sand", not shand or schand as in school i.e. skool, but then maybe that's not how Jānis pronouces it?). Don't try and find any logic in English pronunciation. Latin vowels should be simple - there are only five sounds - but I hear people singing the word "miserere" and each "e" is pronounced differently (miss -er-rare-ray), which is wrong. It should be miss-eh-reh-reh with the 'e' as in "get". Trying to 'Latinise' words just ends up with gobbledegook so it is best to read the word as it is pronounced in its original language and then just add the Latin ending. Mathewii is not Mat- hewii.

[Lesley Cox]

Locals here persist in talking of Ranunculus lie-alley-eye rather than R. lyall-ee-eye. Likewise Celmisia traverse-ee-eye. The men's names were Lyall and Travers, for heaven's sake!

[Janis Ruksans]

If you want a word to sound "sch" then write "sch" not "s". Lichen is pronounced 'liken'; algae has a hard 'g'; colchicum is pronounced as in chicken in this country; ruksansii (after Jānis Rukšāns)  would have the 's' pronounced as in "sand", not shand or schand as in school i.e. skool, but then maybe that's not how Jānis pronouces it?). Don't try and find any logic in English pronunciation. Latin vowels should be simple - there are only five sounds - but I hear people singing the word "miserere" and each "e" is pronounced differently (miss -er-rare-ray), which is wrong. It should be miss-eh-reh-reh with the 'e' as in "get". Trying to 'Latinise' words just ends up with gobbledegook so it is best to read the word as it is pronounced in its original language and then just add the Latin ending. Mathewii is not Mat- hewii.

If to spell by pronunciation - my name would be Jaanis Rukschaans (two aa means longer a). For me it isn't easy allways understand latin names pronounced by british people, allways it takes some time to think how it could be spelled and then light comes...
Janis

[Maggi Young]

When a plant is named for a person, then the spelling reflects ( mostly!!) the way the person's named was spelled.

We hit a further confusion with ruksansii  because, as Janis says, his name is spoken Jaanis Rukschaans.... so we say rukschansii for the plant but the spelling is without the ch!

All very confusing, I agree!

[Boyed]

Maggi,

Yes, all is very comfusing, that's what I mean. But we, by ourselves, make it confusing. We were touhgt Latin in school and it helps me to read and pronounce Latin names correctly. Yes I know, that if a plant is named for a peson the spelling is the way the person's name was spelled in his own language if it has Latin alpahbet. But, as far as I know, it replies to cultivar names, not species and genera names. For example, crocus scharojanii is spelled with Latin rules, while this name is usually spelled and appears in print as Sharoyan. So all is done according to the rules, easy and clear, no confusion.

People can read and pronounce Latin words the way they want, and the reason for this, in my opinion, is breaking the rules that we do very often.

[Gerry Webster]

For those who are interested, I think  Botanical Latin by W.T. Stearn remains the standard work in English. 'Names' are discussed in chapter 20 - far too long & detailed to summarise here.

[Mike Ireland]

Maggi
I must have been having a very senior moment when I typed sieberi instead of speciosus.  Will try harder. Now why does that sounds familiar.

Mike

[Tony Willis]

A quick question if i may - I've just noticed that Crocus aerius, which i'm growing for the first time this season, has a nose at soil level. Is this normal for this Spring-flowering sp. or is it growing early for some reason?

Alex

Alex

although I do not grow Crocus aerius I have looked at other species. Some already have the noses showing and others do not even in the same species,or pot,C. chrysanthus or pelistericus for example. I have noticed this many times and always worry that those not showing early have rotted(sometimes they have) but on the whole it is just natural variation.The ones that show early seem to sit there until the correct flowering time. Could this be a basis for splitting into ssp!!

[Janis Ruksans]

A quick question if i may - I've just noticed that Crocus aerius, which i'm growing for the first time this season, has a nose at soil level. Is this normal for this Spring-flowering sp. or is it growing early for some reason?

Alex

Here you can see pots of two spring flowering crocus species from Italy, pictured today. C. aerius show nothing out of soil with me (various stocks).
Janis

[Janis Ruksans]

Few crocuses from today
At first Crocus aleppicus in warm air of greenhouse nicely opened its flower.
Crocus ochroleucus from same region - this time stock originally was collected by Wallis, I got it from Jim.
Crocus banaticus First Snow now are in full flower and soon will end blooming. The cv. 'Snowdrift' only shows noses out of soil.
First flower of Crocus melantherus opened today, this specimen has yellow anthers. It is quite common in this species. There are populations where black anthered plants dominate but in others dominates yellow anthered specimens.
Janis

[Alex]

Thank you Tony & Janis, very useful.

[udo]

a sunny sunday today, some new Crocus in flower:

Cr.boryi x tournefortii from Tony G.
    hadriaticus f.lilacinus
    caspius
    hadriaticus x sativus`Cashmerianus`, F2 cross
    cancellatus ssp.pamphylicus, white form

[krisderaeymaeker]

a sunny sunday today, some new Crocus in flower:
Cr.boryi x tournefortii from Tony G.
    hadriaticus f.lilacinus
    caspius
    hadriaticus x sativus`Cashmerianus`, F2 cross
    cancellatus ssp.pamphylicus, white form

Nice selection Dirk .Maybe they asked you before but do you always use plastic pots instead of claypots for your Crocus ?
I see Janis using also the plastic ones while others use claypots.What is the advantage ?