Aquilegia saximontana

[maggiepie]

Well, this thread has excited my lust for aquilegias again.
Am going to sow all the old seeds I have that I didn't get around to, some might still be viable.
I have several packets of 'saximontana' seed from several seed exchanges.
 

[Lesley Cox]

I haven't seen mention of the Italian (?) A. bertolonii in this thread. I have no picture unfortunately but in my experience, it does seem always to come true from seed, even though I have had many others growing nearby. It seems to be the American species that are most prone to hybridizing.

[TheOnionMan]

I haven't seen mention of the Italian (?) A. bertolonii in this thread. I have no picture unfortunately but in my experience, it does seem always to come true from seed, even though I have had many others growing nearby. It seems to be the American species that are most prone to hybridizing.

Lesley, Great Moravian mentioned that what is often distributed A. bertolonii is typically incorrect, akin to A. pyrenaica
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6126.msg169677#msg169677
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6126.msg169554#msg169554

I haven't focused on species such as these, because when I started this topic I wanted to specifically highlight A. saximontana as among the most misidentified columbine around, and also give context with associated species and likely misnomers (thus the focus on the ubiquitous flabellata).  Moravian has provided broader context to Aquilegia identifications and misidentification, which has been most helpful, particularly in light of the nearly mythical creature A. jonesii x saximontana.

[TheOnionMan]

Thanks Maggi, I look forward to seeing the next IRG issue with that photo, along with more buckwheats.

I'm out for the day, but tonight will post what is written about A. scopulorum ssp. perplexans in the Gentes Herbarum monograph on Aquilegia, it explains the color variation and I think readers will be interested.

As mentioned, here is the description of Aquilegia scopulorum ssp. perplexans (Clokey 1938) from the Gentes Herbarum 1946 monograph Aquilegia The Cultivated and Wild Columbines by Philip A. Munz.  The subspecies is included under the species A. scopulorum as a synonym.  The description is:  The subspecies perplexans of Charleston Peak, southern Nevada, seems to have no differentiating character except some red in the flowers of some of the plants.  Utah plants range from blue, blue-purple to white for sepals and bluish to yellowish petals.  Since the Charleston Mountain plants have these colors, or add, in some cases, red to give red, blue, blue and white, red and white, red and yellow, white, yellow, they seem too indefinite to stand as a separate subspecies".

I would love to see some of those reported color variants, particularly a red and white form, as pictures I've seen, and plants I've grown, are generally in the blue to blue and white range of things. I've seen pics of nice pink flowered forms.

It is curious that "ssp. perplexans" is wholly absent, even as a synonym, from the USDA North American flora plant profiles, from ITIS (Integrated Taxonomic Information System), and from Flora of North America, the latter only recognizing A. scopulorum. My floras of both Nevada and Utah do not cite any name "perplexans".  I've seen such examples a few times, where a named plant species, variety or subspecies, early in its trajectory is deemed invalid, subsequently getting left out of commonly cited synonymy possibly because of it's speedy nullification.  However, such names often live a long and prosperous perpetuated life in horticulture regardless of long standing taxonomic definitions to the contrary.

[Great Moravian]

This one I get from seed taken at Tajikistan.
 

Aquilegia lactiflora - vicaria - pseudovicaria - tianschanica -karatavica - darwazii alliance discussed in a parallel thread
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6155.0
Probably Aquilegia vicaria because spurs are longer to sepals.

[Great Moravian]

The problem of distinguishing between Aquilegia bertolonii and Aquilegia pyrenaica subsp. pyrenaica is difficult.
There are no differences in the descriptions and keys in Flora europaea and Flore de France. The species overlap in all character values.
For example, spurs are usually hooked and sometimes curved or straight in the former but usually curved or straight and sometimes hooked in the latter.
Bertoloni himself denoted specimens of Aquilegia bertolonii as Aquilegia pyrenaica.
Schott described Aquilegia bertolonii and compared Aquilegia pyrenaica as follows.
...
Aquilegia Bertolonii S. Foliis infimis infra pilosulis, supra  
glabratis , lobulis linearibus subacutatis, divergentibus; caule  
gracili, ramuloso, inferne petiolisque pilosulo l. glabrato, apicem
versus dense viscide-puberulo; floribus magnis; sepalis oblongo-
lanceolatis, acuminatis, ciliolatis, postice sparsepilosulis, antice
glabratis ; petalorum lamina oblonga, sepalis multo breviore,
apice subtruncato-rotundata, extus puberula, intus excepta  
summitate glabra, ciliolata; calcare uncinato, puberulo, cras-
siusculo, lamina sua subaequilongo ; genitalibus petalis paulo
brevioribus; cyamiis . . . . . . . .  
...
Aquilegia pyrenaica DC. foliis infimis infra pilosulis, supra  
glabratis, lobulis oblongo-obovatis, truncato-rotundatis, retusis,
subdistantibus; caule gracili, inferne petiolisque pilosulo, apicem
versus viscido-puberulo; floribus magnis; sepalis oblongo-
ovatis, subcuspidatis, ciliolatis, extus pilosulis, intus glabris;
petalorum lamina oblonga, sepalis multo breviore, apice ro-
tundata, utrinque praecipue apicem versus dense-puberula,
ciliolata, calcare rectiusculo, puberulo, valde attenuato, la-
mina sua multo longiore; genitalibus petalis multo brevioribus;  
cyamiis viscide-puberulis rostro subaequilongo auctis.
...
The differences in orange are not mentioned by later botanists.
In reality, the sepals are not oblong-ovate in the latter but really substantial in comparison to the former.
Compare the tapering sepals of Aquilegia bertolonii
http://luirig.altervista.org/cpm/albums/bot-006/aquilegia-bertolonii11936.jpg
and the substantial sepals in magnificent forms of Aquilegia pyrenaica subsp. pyrenaica
http://www.fotonatura.org/galerias/fotos/usr22713/11999063cm.jpg
but not as substantial in other forms
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_dhmGoQyou-c/S0tzCpbIu_I/AAAAAAAABQM/GM91LIyr77Y/s400/Aquilegia+pyrenaica+blog.jpg
So the differences in brown are of statistical nature.
Spurs in the two specimens below are similarly shaped despite of their belonging to different species. Hence the alleged differences in red are merely statistical.
http://luirig.altervista.org/cpm/albums/bot-006/aquilegia-bertolonii11936.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_dhmGoQyou-c/S0tzCpbIu_I/AAAAAAAABQM/GM91LIyr77Y/s400/Aquilegia+pyrenaica+blog.jpg
Genuine plants are at pages
http://luirig.altervista.org/schedeit/ae/aquilegia_bertolonii.htm
http://www.fotonatura.org/galerias/flora/198516/
Furthermore, the cultivated plants may be hybrids because it is not in the forces of gardeners to distinguish between the two similar species.

[Great Moravian]

The information in Flore de France is as follows. It is written in French abbreviations. A funny reading.
It is obviously useless for our purpose. The information in Flora Europaea is useless too.

A.bertolonii	A. pyrenaica subsp. pyrenaica
éperon gént recourbé en crochet `a son extrémité, plus rart simplement arqué ---> -+ droit	éperon droit ou un peu arqué, exceptionnellement -+ recourbé en crochet `a son extrémité
t. soit glabres soit -+ poilues-glanduleuses ds leur part. sup.	t. glabres ou faiblt poilues-glanduleuses ds leur part. sup.
10-50 cm	10-30 cm

French authors include Aquilegia reuteri in Aquilegia bertolonii.
Several Italian authors restrict the latter to Alpi Apuane and regard the former as a member of the Aquilegia einseleana group.
Leaves
Aquilegia bertolonii, Alpi Apuane
lobulis linearibus subacutatis, divergentibus
http://www.actaplantarum.org/floraitaliae/download/file.php?id=3825
Aquilegia pyrenaica
lobulis oblongo-obovatis, truncato-rotundatis, retusis,
subdistantibus
http://www.florasilvestre.es/mediterranea/Ranunculaceae/Aquilegia_pyrenaica.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Aquilegia_pyrenaica.jpg

[TheOnionMan]

Thanks Moravian for shedding additional light on A. bertolonii and pyrenaica, the color coordinated highlighting of the latin descriptions certainly helps, as does the sequential photo links.

I don't have the Bob Nold book on Aquilegia, anyone have any thoughts they can share about the book.

I keep going back to the Gentes Herbarum 1946 monograph on Aquilegia, even though obviously outdated at this point, it's a truly fine publication packed with information and superb line drawings.  Here are scans from the publication on both A. bertolonii and pyrenaica.
  For sake of keyword searching, there is also a nice line drawing here of A. einseleiana and a flower of A. bernardii.

[Great Moravian]

I am Great Moravian and not Marovian, otherwise I thank TheOnionMan for further information.
So the leaves should be pilose beneath in Aquilegia bertolonii whereas glabrous beneath in Aquilegia pyrenaica.
Flora Iberica claims subglabrous for the latter.
Sepals are broader in the latter in reality.
Botanists obviously cannot reveal a clear distinctive feature separating the two species.

[Maggi Young]

I am Great Moravian and not Marovian, otherwise I thank TheOnionMan for further information.

Dear me, so easy to get the names confused, isn't it, even with people? 

[Great Moravian]

Dear me, so easy to get the names confused, isn't it, even with people?  

No problem. I checked the descriptions by Munz posted above by TheOnionMan. No other differences can be found.
---
Lobuli linear, nearly sharpened, divergent, pilose beneath
         Aquilegia bertolonii
Lobuli oblong-obovate, truncate-rounded, retuse, subdistant,
nearly glabrous beneath
         Aquilegia pyrenaica subsp. pyrenaica
---
Now the alleged Aquilegia jonesii x A. saximontana which is commonly cultivated throughout the world.

Its lobuli of leaves are distinctly truncate-rounded, not resembling the leaves of A. bertolonii.
Therefore Aquilegia pyrenaica subsp. pyrenaica. Nevertheless, the flowers are not ideal.
Perhaps a hybrid.

[Maggi Young]

Dear me, so easy to get the names confused, isn't it, even with people?  

No problem. I checked the descriptions by Munz posted above by TheOnionMan. No other differences can be found.

Great Moravian.... I was having a little joke about the  Onion Man getting your name wrong.... I'm sorry if the British humour is a little difficult to follow.

[TheOnionMan]

I am Great Moravian and not Marovian, otherwise I thank TheOnionMan for further information.
So the leaves should be pilose beneath in Aquilegia bertolonii whereas glabrous beneath in Aquilegia pyrenaica.
Sepals are broader in the latter in reality. Botanists obviously cannot reveal a clear distinctive feature separating the two species.

I tend towards dyslexia and frequently transpose letters or numbers, it was just one such slip, sorry about that.  Also note TheOnionMan uses a signature block revealing my identity as Mark McDonough... people on the forum call me McMark to lessen the confusion with omnipresent forumist Mark Smyth.  You can call me Mark or McMark

Regarding "Botanists obviously cannot reveal a clear distinctive feature separating the two species", I find this often to be the case, not only in Aquilegia, but in other floras and genera.  Sometimes one has to also know the provenance of wild collected plants or seed to get a clue too, although species descriptions should be able to stand on their own and not rely on provenance for separation.

[TheOnionMan]

Just some links to selected Calphotos images of Aquilegia scopulorum.

Aquilegia scopulorum - foliage
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?enlarge=0000+0000+1209+2811
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?enlarge=0000+0000+1209+3166
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?enlarge=0000+0000+1209+3169
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?enlarge=0000+0000+1209+3177

Aquilegia scopulorum - flowering plants in the wild, Utah
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?enlarge=0000+0000+0110+1042
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?enlarge=0000+0000+1209+3162
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?enlarge=0000+0000+1209+3168

[TheOnionMan]

There is continuing presence of the near mythical Aquilegia jonesii x saximontana hybrid, I chanced upon the following article which sheds some light on this entity.

There's an article about this hybrid cross published in the Bulletin of the American Rock Garden Society, Vol. 38, Summer 1980, N0.3, pp. 113-114, "A Dwarf Aquilegia Hybrid", by Trevor Cole, Ottawa Research Station, Agriculture Canada, Ottawa, Ontario.  In the article, Trevor reports on his experience growing seed of A. jonesii which had been collected on the Big Horn Mountains.  In the ensuring years growing and flowering A. jonesii, the only other columbine close by was A. saximontana, reported as 6' (2 m) away.  From seed harvested off his own A. jonesii plants and sown in January 1976, about 40 seedlings were grown on.  In the batch of seedlings, two different forms appeared. Most plants were typical in growth to saximontana, but 5 plants were characteristic of jonesii.  Almost all plants "bloomed profusely in the summer of 1977", and "seed was collected in quite large amounts and sent to the ARGS seed exchange listed as A. jonesii x saximontana".  So indeed, the cross did exist at one point in time.

Surely 33 years hence, with the well known promiscuity of the genus Aquilegia, unless any of these hybrids were grown absolutely isolated, there is almost no chance that anything close to the unadulterated cross between the two species exists today.  It is also important to note, that the seed that was initially distributed, was itself variable, from hybrid plants that already showed a couple different growth characteristics.

Almost everything bearing the name of this cross (and sometimes you can see it listed the other way around) look to be dwarf forms and/or hybrids of A. pyrenaica.