2010/11 catalogues

[Maggi Young]

Are any bulbs actually raised from seed?  I would not have thought this was an efficient mode of propagation, even if they came true from seed (which in itself would be very rare)

A great many bulbs come true from seed and it is one of the best ways to keep a healthy population and keep vigour in one's bulb collection to keep raising them from seed.... not to mention the benefit in cleaning up any stocks one has the misfortune to get with a virus. And, of course, the fact that seed raised plants of any kind will tend, by each generation, to be more adapted to your conditions.
Once a stable population is established then a percentage acceptable to cultivar recogniton can also be found.That's something which does not appear to be the case with many snowdrops, for sure, but something that the likes of Martin B is breeding for, I think.

[Maggi Young]

  So it doesn't seem very likely anyone has succeeded in finding/breeding a snowdrop cultivar that comes remotely true from seed. 

 A cynical person (such as myself ) might opine that it seems darned hard to get a stable snowdrop from vegetative propagation, let alone seed 

[Alan_b]

Once a stable population is established then a percentage acceptable to cultivar recogniton can also be found.That's something which does not appear to be the case with many snowdrops,

I couldn't think of any.  Possibly some of the long-established green-tipped nivalis varieties like viridipice?  But I don't know that, just speculating.  I completely agree about all the benefits if it could be done.

[Martin Baxendale]

Alan, I was answering the question you asked, although it did seem a rather odd one:
 

Are any bulbs actually raised from seed?  I would not have thought this was an efficient mode of propagation, even if they came true from seed (which in itself would be very rare)

If you're talking about named cultivars, then no of course they're almost exclusively propagated vegetatively from a single clone - unless they're a grex, a group of seedlings from the same parentage that look virtually identical, close enough to each other to be treated virtually like a clone. The snowdrop 'Fieldgate Prelude' is an example of this.

Of course the grex does have to be very constant, with the various seedlings in it virtually impossible to tell apart. It would be possible for someone to raise a bunch of snowdrop seedlings which were close enough to each other to be treated as a grex, then the various seedlings could be mixed together and propagated vegetatively and sold under one name.

The problem would be if  the seedlings were not identical enough or some were not as constant in appearance as others (this might not be immediately noticeable without trials in different gardens). If they were mixed and chipped and grown on as a mixed grex but later turned out to not all look the same then there would be an obious problem. This is the sort of scenario I'm thinking of in my query to Gerard - whether this might be the case with 'Green Brush' or if it is definitely a single clone.

[Martin Baxendale]

It's also possible that someone might continue to raise seedlings from the same cross that produced a good snowdrop seedling ir batch of seedings, or from a seed parent that they found regularly produced seedlings similar to itself, selecting and rogueing to produce a strain. But again, the big question is over the efficiency of the selecting and rogueing, and whether the seedlings remain constant in different soils and situations.

[Martin Baxendale]

It would be very helpful if Gerard could clarify what he said earlier:

"I dont know for sure because its not mine, but what i know its grown from seed. Elwesii are rather variable, but last year i bought the biggest bulbs he had grown and they were all good!"

I'm not sure if I'm reading it correctly.

[kentish_lass]

Continuing on from the 'Green Brush' chatter.  I can't offer a photograph from my garden as the one I purchased last year didn't survive until this year      But here are a couple of photographs I took of 'Green Brush' yesterday.

Here is a photo I took today of the G elwesii Green Brush that I bought at Wisley at the Snowdrop Splendour weekend so this was supplied by Simon Lockyer. I believe Avon bulbs and Simon bought them at the same time from the same supplier??  It has a very green inner marking.  I hope I do not lose mine - however at the checkout at Wisley they told me to keep my receipt and all labels with barcodes as the snowdrops are under guarantee for 2 years.  I was quite surprised at this.....and happy
Jennie

[kentish_lass]

Someone was asking about G elwesii Snow White the other day but I cannot find the thread.

I bought G elwesii Snow White at Wisley the other weekend and here is a photo of it taken today.  It is a small rounded flower.  Also see the second photograph - is this Stag?  If so, what do I do?  I have moved it away from the other snowdrops until I find out. 
thanks Jennie

[loes]

last year I bought 2 'Green Brush' ,both with the good solid mark.One did not survive and the other has no flower so no photo`s from me.

[Gerard Oud]

Martin I dont know exactly about the English breedingterms and words you use. But what i was told, my colleage got it from his friends father who did Galanthus and Lillie breeding. Green Brush is the product of breeding and is no clone but a hybride. They selected the seedlings and Green Brush was found. The Green Brush from Avon were supplied by Dix export.
If they had bought them from me, they would have had the biggest and best

[Gerard Oud]

Here is the real elwesii Snowwhite found by Jan Huisman who is one of the exhibitors next weekend near the Zaanse Schans.

[Martin Baxendale]

Martin I dont know exactly about the English breedingterms and words you use. But what i was told, my colleage got it from his friends father who did Galanthus and Lillie breeding. Green Brush is the product of breeding and is no clone but a hybride. They selected the seedlings and Green Brush was found. The Green Brush from Avon were supplied by Dix export.
If they had bought them from me, they would have had the biggest and best

I thought you said earlier in this thread that you'd sold 50 Green Brush to Avon Bulbs, but checking back I see you say you sold them 50 bulbs this year. So last year's bulbs were from Dix?

I realise Green Brush must be a selection from elwesii seedlings. What I'm asking is was Green Brush originally just one selected seedling which has been propagated by division or chipping, so that all the Green Brush bulbs being sold now come originally from just that one single bulb (that is what a clone means in English). Or were a number of similar-looking bulbs originally selected and then propagated by division or chipping, so that the Green Brush bulbs being sold now originally came from a number of seedlings which looked much the same as each other? (that would be a grex, and not a clone).

I hope my reading of your original comment is wrong and that Green Brush is a clone originating from a single selected seedling, not from a number of selected seedlings. And I think other forumists would also be interested to know the answer to that if you know it or can find out for us. Thanks.

[Gerard Oud]

Now i know what you mean Martin! All Green brush are from one single bulb!
If you read it well i said indeed this year and not last year!
I hope everything is clear now

everyone a nice weekend

[Alan_b]

is this Stag? 

You need to inspect the bulb.  A healthy bulb should look white if you wash it and rub off the dead outer layers as necessary.  And it should have a good root system.  A bulb with Stagonospora will not come completely clean or will be stained.  It will probably have few roots.  In a bad case the ends of the leaves look as if they have been burned.

Stag will tend to cause the outer layers of the bulb to rot away but if you isolate the bulb in a pot and change the compost each year, washing the bulb when you do, then I think some bulbs can be saved.  Remove as much as you can of the infected material.  This requires a lot of effort, so if you believe time is money then it might well be more economic to throw away infected bulbs. 

[Martin Baxendale]

Now i know what you mean Martin! All Green brush are from one single bulb!
If you read it well i said indeed this year and not last year!
I hope everything is clear now

everyone a nice weekend

I did read all your posts very carefully Gerard, thank you. You wrote that you sold the bulbs to Avon "for this year" which suggests that you sold them for sale by them this year. Also your post about the origins of Green Brush was quite confusing, although I did read it very carefully and a number of times.

Anyway, I'm happy to hear that Green Brush is indeed a clone and not a variable grex. Hopefully that means that it will flower as seen in the photos once it settled into people's gardens. Thanks for your help.