Winter Narcissus

[Diane Clement]

To miniatus/serotinus:
Not much to add to Dianes comments. Until recent changes were published (beginning with Donnison-Morgan et al., 2005) these plants were simply labelled 'serotinus'.

And the N miniatus on the AGS list were donated by Derrick Donnison-Morgan, as Gerd says, he published the split from N serotinus in 2005 in the Narcissus year book.

[annew]

Hi Eddie, and welcome. You can't do better than read Ian Young's Bulblog every week to learn things you didn't even know you needed to know!
See: http://www.srgc.org.uk/logs/index.php?log=bulb

[Juan Fornes]

- Gerd, your x alleniae is very special! Are the three pics three different plants? The first one looks greener (like having more N.viridiflorus in it), but I´m not sure if that´s because of the light. Although I prefer "pure" species, this one is really great!
- Does anyone know if Narcissus perezlarae is definitely considered a species or a hybrid (N x perezlarae, N.cavanillesii x N.serotinus)?
- Narcissus tazetta has finally decided to flower also in the wild here (later than yours, Oron!). Distribution in the wild here Spain is not certain, as it is suspected to have increased the range with human "help". It is thought to be native, at least, in north-east and Balearic Islands. Where I live, it is usually found  near human enviroments (these pictures were taken near Orange crops, as can be seen in the second pic, and sometimes they can be found IN orange crops, like Arum italicum and the much more extended alien Oxalis pes-caprae)

[Rafa]

Narcissus x perez-larae is the cross between N. cavanillesii and N. miniatus (I personaly prefers to use N. deficiens). N. miniatus is the plant with orange corona, regular tronco-conic perianth tube and occur in almost all  Mediterranean countries. It usually has 1-4 flowers per escapo. In Spain it occurs in levante and very few populations in Córdoba, Jaén and Sevilla.... In addition, it has a very probable hybrid origin between N. elegans (I use N. obsoletus) and N. serotinus

Narcissus serotinus is the species that occurs in Extremadura, Algarve and Sevilla. It has greenish/yellow corona, and the perianth tube is not regular, it changes like a bottle. I tusually have 1 and rarely 2 flowers per escapo.

Narcissus x perez-larae is being fertile in Valencia and is currently called N. piifontianus F. Casas. I found also some plants of N. piifontianus in Cádiz.

[Juan Fornes]

    Gracias, Rafa!
    Thank you very much for your promt reply! Very interesting, although I´m now much more confused: Narcissus perezlarae is described as cavanillesii x serotinus in the "Catálogo Valenciano de especies de Flora Amenazada", dated 2009, and "Flora Iberica", in PDF of the 20th. volume, is even more confusing about this "species": N. x perezlarae is said to be an hybrid between N. cavanillesii x N. obsoletus, the latter being also of hybrid origin between N. serotinus x N. elegans. So now I´m having a headache... Next autumm flower-hunting will be full of interest! Thank you again!

[Rafa]

Sorry Juan,

You are right it is very confusing.
Well, I don't support most of things in this Volume of Flora Iberica and I support botanist like A. Barra and F. Casas.

There are currently two tendencies concerning this autumn narcissi group. I will try to explain.

There is an herbarium sheet with something similar to N. elegans called N. obsoletus but very confusing, collected in Andalusia.
Botanist like Díaz Lifante & Andrés Camacho consider it is in fact N. miniatus, so they support N. elegans.
Botanist like F. Casas consider this plant N. obsoletus corresponds to N. elegans, and suggest an older name for N. miniatus = N. deficiens.

In Flora Iberica you will see:

Narcissus elegans
Narcissus obsoletus (=N. miniatus)
Narcissus serotinus
N. x perez-larae (N. cavanillesii x N. obsoletus)

But if you reed the articles from F. Casas, you will see:

Narcissus obsoletus (=N. elegans)
Narcissus deficiens (=N. miniatus)
Narcissus serotinus
N. x perez-larae (N. cavanillesii x N. deficiens) -----fertile----> Narcissus piifontianus

The hybrid in both cases have to be changed by other name, in my op pinion, as it has been described with N. serotinus L. as a parent, and this is wrong.

In addition, N. cavanillesii x N. serotinus = N. x alentejanus, with 3 variants, the one that Gerd described before "var. moronensis", an intermediate "var. knochei" and "var. alentejanus"
I am sure there is also N.x alentejanus fertile, because they follow the same evolutive process....

[Gerdk]

- Gerd, your x alleniae is very special! Are the three pics three different plants? The first one looks greener (like having more N.viridiflorus in it), but I´m not sure if that´s because of the light. Although I prefer "pure" species, this one is really great!

Juan - the pics show three slightly different plants of the hybrid. There are indeed specimen which are very close to N. viridiflorus and others that look more like N. miniatus. I was told that there are fertile and infertile ones occuring. If you look back in this Forum in 'Autumn flowering daffodils' you'll find some pics from Rafa who visited these endangered plants in their natural habitat.

Rafa also tried to explain the complicated matter of some other autumn flowering daffs.

Gerd

[Rafa]

This narcissus from Spanish Levante, and Mediterranean countries with orange corona it has been described many times with other names, but also they have been always cancelled in favor of Narcissus serotinus L. this is why I consider N. miniatus is not acceptable, because whatever it will be the tendence you support, there are many older names, therefore, prioritary name is N. deficiens or N. obsoletus.

I never seen this herbarium sheet, and even the botanist are not very sure if N. obosletus corresponds to N. elegans or N. miniatus.

Appart the "Names War" it is generaly accepted that this narcissus is a succesful hybridogen species between N. elegans (or N. obsoletus) and N. serotinus.

Once you are familiar with this group of plants you can not get confuse and now I can't understand why botanist pass so many time mixing N. deficiens and N. serotinus in the same bag. And I think the same concerning: N. albicans/N. cantabricus; N. cantabricus/N. blancoi and N. hedraeanthus/N. blancoi.

Master Gerd, I am sure N. x alleniae will be fertile soon, due the reduction and isolation of the localities.

[Lesley Cox]

Yesterday in the post I received two dormant and beautiful bulbs (remember it's high summer here) of Narcissus tazzeta var (or ssp) patulus, from a generous "lurker" on the Forum (N. 'Betty May' has been seen at UK shows) and with a little information to the effect that it came to her from Mary Evans many years ago, Mary being a NZer who collected in the company of Paul Furze on some occasions.

I saw this lovely plant, potted and in flower at a late autumn meeting in 2010 and had never seen anything similar. I was totally taken with it and Betty has kindly pased along the bulbs which I'm to plant immediately in a warm spot. I'll do that today.

She said, Rafa, that you had mentioned this on the Forum at some time. Can you give me any information about it, or a reference for the Forum posting? There seems to be almost nothing about it anywhere except the occasional mention of the name alone. Google isn't much use either.

[David Nicholson]

Lesley, it's Betty MAE

[Juan Fornes]

 Thank you Gerd. I´ll read with carefully the autumn daffodil thread.
- Rafa: thank you so much for your lesson!  Very interesting. I´ll try to look for plants next autumn  trying to keep all this in mind. It´s been really great to read your comments. Thank you, Master! You know very well your subdits!

[Maggi Young]

Lesley, you are very lucky!

David's link (now removed)just opens the search page but a search for Betty Mae( I edited his post) will bring you quite a lot of info.
 This post gives some good stuff ( after I uncrossed my wires, at the time!!)
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=73.msg5763#msg5763

Edit by Maggi: Sorry, got mixed up... Betty has given you the  'patulus'?

Ian has been researching that for Betty .... to no great advance.... seems an elusive thing to pin down... if  very lovely!

[Rafa]

Lesley, try Daffseek, there is a record of N. patulus, but I don't really think these plants are expontaneus in France....
We have a locality, probabily expontaneus of a little and robust N. tazetta, that remeber something between N. canaliculatus and N. patulus.
More studies are needed...

[David Nicholson]

Lesley, you are very lucky!

David's link just opens the search page but a search for Betty Mae( I edited his post) will bring you quite a lot of info.
 This post gives some good stuff ( after I uncrossed my wires, at the time!!)
http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=73.msg5763#msg5763

Edit by Maggi: Sorry, got mixed up... Betty has given you the  'patulus'?

Ian has been researching that for Betty .... to no great advance.... seems an elusive thing to pin down... if  very lovely!

Did I mis-understand

[Maggi Young]

No, I did!