Winter Narcissus

[Rafa]

Sorry Juan,

You are right it is very confusing.
Well, I don't support most of things in this Volume of Flora Iberica and I support botanist like A. Barra and F. Casas.

There are currently two tendencies concerning this autumn narcissi group. I will try to explain.

There is an herbarium sheet with something similar to N. elegans called N. obsoletus but very confusing, collected in Andalusia.
Botanist like Díaz Lifante & Andrés Camacho consider it is in fact N. miniatus, so they support N. elegans.
Botanist like F. Casas consider this plant N. obsoletus corresponds to N. elegans, and suggest an older name for N. miniatus = N. deficiens.

In Flora Iberica you will see:

Narcissus elegans
Narcissus obsoletus (=N. miniatus)
Narcissus serotinus
N. x perez-larae (N. cavanillesii x N. obsoletus)

But if you reed the articles from F. Casas, you will see:

Narcissus obsoletus (=N. elegans)
Narcissus deficiens (=N. miniatus)
Narcissus serotinus
N. x perez-larae (N. cavanillesii x N. deficiens) -----fertile----> Narcissus piifontianus

The hybrid in both cases have to be changed by other name, in my op pinion, as it has been described with N. serotinus L. as a parent, and this is wrong.

In addition, N. cavanillesii x N. serotinus = N. x alentejanus, with 3 variants, the one that Gerd described before "var. moronensis", an intermediate "var. knochei" and "var. alentejanus"
I am sure there is also N.x alentejanus fertile, because they follow the same evolutive process....

I update my comment here, since having a chat with the authorities in this genus. There is an agreement and this issue is definitively closed recognizing the following species.

Narcissus elegans
Narcissus obsoletus (= N. miniatus)
Narcissus serotinus

Maybe it will be another surprise concerning N. elegans...

[fermi de Sousa]

Speaking of autumn daffs, I need some help "defining" Narcissus miniatus. Seed of it from the AGS Seedex has been confiscated by AQIS (Australian Quarantine Inspection Service) because it isn't on ICON (the "allowed" list). Do some people still consider it a ssp of N. serotinus? Or when was it re-classified? Any help I can get to do battle with bureacracy would be appreciated! 

A few years ago, N serotinus was split into N miniatus for the Western Med species, and N serotinus for the Eastern Med species.   
However  (I'm not sure this is going to help) it seems that very recently there have been further changes to N miniatus
and it is now N obsoletus
http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/synonomy.do?name_id=281989
On this page you will see other synonyms, including N serotinus in various subspecies.  Hope that helps you get it through

Thanks for your help, Diane.
The seed were released to my care last week!
cheers
fermi

[annew]

That is a very nice cantabricus Rafa.

[Rafa]

Thank you Anne

Here N. cantabricus with his son N. x matritensis

[Diane Clement]

Thanks for your help, Diane.
The seed were released to my care last week!    cheers   fermi   

That's great news.  We look forward to seeing the results ... in a year or three 

[Gerry Webster]

Thank you Anne

Here N. cantabricus with his son N. x matritensis

Very interesting Rafa. Is this a natural hybrid? What was the other parent?

[Rafa]

Gerry, this is the new name for N. x susannae, (N. cantabricus x N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus), the mother is N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus

N. x litigiosus del Amo (N. albicans x N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus) and the mother is also pallidulus.

[Hans A.]

  - Wow Rafa, what a beauty!

[Rafa]

If you don't grow it, you will have it next summer

[Diane Clement]

Gerry, this is the new name for N. x susannae, (N. cantabricus x N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus), the mother is N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus
N. x litigiosus del Amo (N. albicans x N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus) and the mother is also pallidulus.  

This hybrid and N cantabricus are among my all time favourite plants.  I just looked up this "new" name for the hybrid as I thought it was what I have called N x susannae and I found this picture in the wild.  This is a superb shot showing the hybrid alongside the parent.  Hope that's Ok with Rafa to post the link
http://www.treknature.com/gallery/photo233123.htm

It seems to show the hybrid as a lot bigger than N triandrus, is that correct, Rafa or just due to perspective on the photo?

[Rafa]

You are right Diane, this particular plants were bigger than N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus, there were dozens of hybrids with 1,2,3 flowers, and clumps with more than 40 bulbs! In this particular place there were also N. x litigiosus which is more cream.

Talking about natural crosses this is a plant that I am currently studying, one of the most rare hybrid I ever seen N. graellsii x N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus. Here the mother was N. triandrus susbp. pallidulus, but there is another variety, when N. graellsii is the mother.

[Hans A.]

If you don't grow it.....

Unfortunately not...  
very beautiful Hybrid - looks similar to the picture of N. munozii-garmandiae I have seen.

[Rafa]

N. munozii-garmendiae?
Hans, this name is for a member of asturiensis group.
http://www.treknature.com/viewphotos.php?l=3&p=152284

[YT]

Rafa, thank you for sharing the pics of such unusual and exciting narcissuses! It’s hard for me to recognise such charming natural hybrids are existed in the wild because even parents species (under right names) are rarely seen in cultivation here.

It’s very interesting those perianths of charming "N. graellsii x N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus" are broader than both parents.

[Hans A.]

N. munozii-garmendiae?
Hans, this name is for a member of asturiensis group.
http://www.treknature.com/viewphotos.php?l=3&p=152284

Very confusing all - but I am in very good company - see http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4766.75 reply 88.
I think it was in Blanchards book I had seen the picture.