Primula laurentiana??

[Graham Catlow]

I would prefer seeds collected in Canada. You should contact
http://www.gardensnorth.com/
if still available.

That would mean that it was actually the real thing.
I will send Krystl a PM to see if she collected any this year.
Thanks again.

[Graham Catlow]

Thanks Tony and John,
Krystl posted a few photos in her 'My Bit of Heaven' thread and I commented on how they looked inferior in the wild to mine in cultivation. But the reason could be that they are actually different plants altogether.

Graham

[Giles]

Graham,
Seed is available from Chiltern Seeds, and from Jelitto too.
Giles

[johnw]

Graham,
Seed is available from Chiltern Seeds, and from Jelitto too.
Giles

Giles - Not unusual I guess that we'd have to go to the UK or Germany to get seeds of our native plants. Tony showed a nice shot of the Primula on Brier Island, NS.  I had forgotten the nice meal on the undersides. Unfortunately or rather fortunately for the plants we are not allowed to collect anything from there according to Provincial Regulations.  At least a few spots here that are protected; many locals are keen clear-cutters. 

johnw

[Kristl Walek]

Graham,
Seed is available from Chiltern Seeds, and from Jelitto too.
Giles

Not unusual I guess that we'd have to go to the UK or Germany to get seeds of our native plants.

John, quite a few of the east coast Canadian species in the Jelitto catalogue have, in fact, come from me over the years; and I can't think of a botanically worthwhile native east coast species that I have not carried in my catalogue. I only wish there were more of us doing this, instead of the literal handful throughout ALL of North America (and decreasing each year).

Technically, there is actually no restriction on collecting seed of vulnerable species --- unless that species is also growing in a spot that is "protected." Most of the populations of Primula laurentiana in Nova Scotia that I have encountered (not just on Brier Island), are not growing in conservation areas or protected places.

Even Helianthemum canadense, which has a Red (at risk) status in Nova Scotia, and sensitive nationally, does not have "legal protection".

I do not know any one-person seed operation where the owner does not first consider the actual species in the wild, and its rarity/status before collecting seed. This is always the underlying ethical consideration. And this is rather paramount to the acitivity; much moreso, in fact that the indiscrimate users of wild spaces who give not a single thought to the impact their activities have on the ecosystem. Can you tell I have rather strong opinions on this subject.

By the way, John, I was sorry to miss your Magnolia talk on Tuesday night; but alas the latest storm had me heading straight back to Annapolis from the airport that day. Hope it went well.

[Graham Catlow]

And then!!! Primula laurentiana seeds head my way from Kristl 

This really is an amazing forum.
All I need to do now is to germinate them and grow them on.

Many many thanks Kristl.
And thank you all for your imput.

Graham

[Kristl Walek]

Graham,

Germination is certainly easy (warm within 2-4 weeks); growing on may be a bit more challenging.

I also wanted to say that while Primula laurentiana is heavily farinose, there is an efarinose form described as forma chlorophylla, a common variant throughout the range of the species. I grow this variant here and one sees it frequently in the wild (and some of your seed may produce this, as I did not isolate out the efarinose form).

While I do have my own photographs of Primula laurentiana and mistassinica in the wild, I think John Mauder's pictures on the Digital Flora of Newfoundland and Labrador are particularly good, showing not only descriptive botanical features, but whole plants in situ. Do take a look. It is *very* worthwhile.

This link will also show you the rare Primula egaliksensis and forma violaceae in the Great Northern Peninsula of Newfoundland.

http://www.digitalnaturalhistory.com/flora_primulaceae_index.htm#primulaegaliksensis

This is the area where I will be botanizing in July this year; and hope to see the Primula and (many) other alpine gems.

[Maggi Young]

Do take a look. It is *very* worthwhile.

This link will also show you the rare Primula egaliksensis and forma violaceae in the Great Northern Peninsula of Newfoundland.

http://www.digitalnaturalhistory.com/flora_primulaceae_index.htm#primulaegaliksensis

Oh, another  great link to follow and enjoy.... it is any wonder my house is full of dust?

[Graham Catlow]

Thanks Kristl,
It looks great. Excellent for identification! Will have a good browse later and over the weekend.

[John Richards]

If I can enter this debate; definitely the best source of images of P. laurentiana is the Primulaworld website. The five images from Newfoundland by Alessia Guggisberg, a Swiss student who worked on the DNA of this group with Elena Conti at Zurich are correct and typical of P. laurentiana, showing the long scape exceeding the leaves and the narrow long-petiolate leaves. Despite what has been said, none of the images under this name are P. frondosa, but I think those from Todd Borland in the wild and the Rankins in cultivation (from wild seed by the way) might be P. mistassinica. The ranges of these two species overlaps from Maine to Newfoundland. They are best separated by the mating system. The flowers of P. mistassinica are heterostyle (pin or thrum) but those of P. laurentiana homostyle with both the stigma and anthers in the mouth of the flower (and self-fertile). I can't assess this character in any of the photos, but P. mistassinica is a rather small delicate plant which fits these latter photos better. I am growing P. laurentiana from wild seed at the moment and some have survived overwinter in the alpine house to flower a second year. I guess it liked the hard spell! P. laurentiana is a rare plant in cultivation and is unlikely to be correct unless grown from wild collected seed (which may as stated now be illegal). To continue the debate, P. frondosa is best known by its rounded,  crenately dentate leaf blades and short wide petiole. Like P. mistassinica it is heterostyle (pin or thrum), and it has relatively large flowers on scapes which scarcely exceed the leaves. Typically, there is a marked contrast in farina (meal)between the top surface and the lower surface of the leaf, much more so than in P. farinosa for instance, but I am incorrect in 'Primula' (key and descriptions) to say that it lacks farina above. There is a scattering of meal above, but much less than in most of its relatives.

[Great Moravian]

Finally. I sadly agree that I cannot certainly distinguish between images of
Primula frondosa and Primula mistassinica. I would appreciate
further features making it possible to identify the two species.
But I cannot agree if you say Primula farinosa has leaves mealy
above. At least the plants occurring in southern Alps haven't.
---
http://www.fungoceva.it/erbe_ceb/Primula_farinosa.htm
http://www.gartendatenbank.de/photo/2009062904
http://botany.cz/cs/primula-farinosa
http://luirig.altervista.org/cpm/albums/bot-020/normal_001-primula-farinosa.jpg

[Great Moravian]

And to which species really belong the two images
starting the thread, about which I was so certain
it is obviously Primula frondosa.

[Great Moravian]

In Slovakia, the leaves are green above too.
Perhaps British plants are different.
---
http://www.foto-net.sk/?idp=18774&loc=2
http://www.foto-net.sk/?idp=14522&loc=2&page=1

[Kristl Walek]

Of course, our great Canadian Pam Eveleigh's Primula World website is THE BEST---and I do hope that anyone who does not know this inavaluable resource check it out immediately!!!!! I always assume it is widely known.

I've dug out my pictures of Primula mistassinica taken in the wild in Ontario (quite a long drive into northern Ontario, as it didn't exist further south near Ottawa, where I lived). The habitat of this species is different from that of P. laurentiana, growing, as it does, more inland, on gravel bars, along rivers, the shores of lakes, creeks etc. often in incredibly competitive conditions.

P. laurentiana, on the other hand, is chiefly a coastal species (on  ledges, cliffs, rocky coastlines or summits, outcrops--non forested).
It is this species that I have encountered here in southern Nova Scotia, where it is scattered on cliffs and headlands along the Bay of Fundy shore. Primula mistassinica only occurs further north in central Nova Scotia and much further north, in Cape Breton.

And, in keeping with its Canadian origins---P. mistassinica (primevère du lac Mistassini) was originally named for Lake Mistassini, the largest natural lake in Quebec, 700 miles north of Montreal. It was, in fact in the Gaspe Peninsula and northern Quebec that I first encountered both P. mistassinica and P. laurentiana in the wild some 20+ years ago. P. mistassinica is the smaller of the two, with a scape typically 20cm tall (laurentiana to 50cm).

Where it is happy, P. mistassinica will form large colonies in the wild, as it did along this lake in northern Ontario.

The seed I sell in my catalogue comes from this population.

[Kristl Walek]

And here are rather poorer picture examples of P. laurentiana, photographed in the wild in Nova Scotia---which I will have to work on this spring. If judging by size alone, one could be confused. However, it must be remembered that the species is growing here in a tough, rocky, exposed habitat and the photographs were done at the early stage of flowering, before many of the scapes had fully extended. In any event, none of the plants in this particular spot ever reach the 50cm textbook description.

However, one can clearly see the difference in the foliage ---and the picture of the rosette only, taken in August, shows the dense farinose underside of the leaf where it is curled.

It is also worthy of note that Primula laurentiana typically flowers earlier than P. mistassinica. The following pictures, on Brier Island in Nova Scotia were taken on May 12th, 2010. The former pictures of P. mistassinica in Ontario were taken in mid-June or later.

P. mistassinica flowers are most normally in the purplish, mauve, white colour range, and P. laurentiana more normally pinkish to white.