Allium 2011

[Lvandelft]

I show here a picture of three Allium flowers, which were shown at the Lisse Flowershow.

Older gardeners will probably recognize the one on the left side as Allium neapolitanum.
Good for cutting and without having the characteristic Allium scent.

When ordering A. neapolitanum nowadays there is a great possibility that you will receive bulbs of the one on the right side.
I was told that the bulbs of the left one are more yellowish.
It seems that the one on the right side somehow (seed?) unnoted appeared in stocks and was making more young bulbs, thus more rapidly propagating and subtly took over stocks (This seems to happen with many more bulbous or perennial plants?)
The one in the middle came into the trade from France? as Allium cowanii and has bigger flower heads.

I see in the RHS Plantfinder listing :
Allium neapolitanum
Allium neapolitanum Cowanii Group
Allium neapolitanum Grandiflorum

In the trade mostly Allium cowanii are offered, because growers are not sure about the naming.
You will find descriptions in catalogues like this:
A. cowanii….Starry pure white flws. (6-7)40
A. cowanii: Large heads of pure white flowers in May, 40 cms.
A. Cowanii Group: White flowers Apr-May, 40cm.

Grandiflorum….Flattened heads of white flws. (5-6)30
A.neapolitanum: dwarf species with white star-like flowers on stiff stems to 20cm

Finally I found in B. Mathew, Dwarf Bulbs, 1973:
Allium neapolitanum, stems usually about 20 – 30cm, with rather loose many-flowered umbels 5 – 7 cm in diameter, flowers very pure white 1.5 – 2 cm. in diameter with broad substantial perianth segments.

From the same author in The Bulbous Plants of Turkey, 1984 I read:
About 20 – 45 cm. tall, umbel 5 – 9 cm. diameter, hemispherical, many flowered.
Flowers large, up to 2 cm. diameter, white, cup-shaped or stellate……

[Stephenb]

Magnar: I haven't managed to overwinter paradoxum normale here...

Luit: Interesting, but again one I can't grow...

The picture shows a sweaty Allium altaicum (I think) spotted yesterday!

The flower scape fell over in a storm and I took the second picture which shows it has a strange wide "double" structure with a cleavage... what does all this mean?

[wmel]

Good evening,

I post some pictures of (some) allium flowering now,
Some of them flowering with me for the first time, bought last summer from Janis Ruksans ( membranaceum, balansae)
The others I have already for more years now.
 

tuncelianum 1 2011.JPG
trautvetteranum 2 2011.JPG
membranaceum 1 2011.JPG
Howelii clokeyi 1 2011.JPG
fimbriatum purdyi 2 2011.JPG
dasyphyllum 1 2011.JPG
campanulatum 2 2011.JPG
balansae 2 2011.JPG
baisunense 1 2011.JPG

[bulborum]

Nice collection Wietse

Roland

[Regelian]

Great collection!  I've not heard of most of these.  Again, I must say I'm not seeing the differences between many of the purported species.  I suspect much has to do with that which we don't see in a picture. A. baisunense has an interesting display.

[TheOnionMan]

The picture shows a sweaty Allium altaicum (I think) spotted yesterday!

The flower scape fell over in a storm and I took the second picture which shows it has a strange wide "double" structure with a cleavage... what does all this mean?

Stephen, sometimes Alliums are so rude!

[TheOnionMan]

Wietse, I am astounded by your garden and collection of alliums shown.  I hadn't yet commented on your general Allium garden view at: http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6685.msg203810#msg203810
but ooh-la-la, it demonstrates just how amazing a garden can be using just alliums, and blooming so late when most spring bulbs are long but memories.

Jamie wrote "Again, I must say I'm not seeing the differences between many of the purported species".  On the contrary, I believe the posting of 9 allium species is an excellent representation of species diversity, all are indeed good species, they also demonstrate some relationships.  I think if each species could be fully observed with foliage and plant form, as we see in the first photo of Allium  tuncelianum, we'd get a clearer impression of the uniqueness of the species.

I am glad to see American species so well grown the Netherlands, sadly most American species (of which there are over 100) are all but missing from the horticultural scene here, virtually none of them available commercially as bulbs, with the exception of Allium unifolium (sometimes masquerading under the ancient invalid name of Allium "murrayanum"), Allium cernuum is sold among perennial nurseries, and a few other species are available from seed sources.  I would love to try A. howellii var. clokeyi, a lovely species with ample florets accentuated by lavender anthers... I like it!  The form of A. campanulatum you show is particularly deep colored... folks, notice the tell-tale dark ring of color near the center of the flower.  That dark ring is also present in the closely allied A. membranaceum which is also shown here, showing the relationship between these two fine western American species.

Back to A. tuncelianum, an engaging picture illustrating everything I love about Alliums; good foliage with bold presence, crazy curly coiling serpentine stems and snake-like buds; an utterly distinctive garden-worthy plant.  Would like to grow this one.

I have grown A. trautvetterianum from bulbs sent to me by Arnis Seisums, and it flowered for a couple years but sadly just a memory now.  I have particular Allium-lust for the giant airy headed types, like A. protensum and A. caspium.  Regarding Allium baissunense, it used to be regarded as its own species but is currently defined as a subspecies of A. caspium, Allium caspium (Pall.) M. Bieb. subsp. baissunense (Lipsky) F.O. Khass. & R.M. Fritsch, 1994.

Oooh, A. dasyphyllum has it all going on, a fascinating species, love the red anthers... another one I seek to grow.

Lastly, regarding A. balansae, what a cute dwarf rock garden species, one of many desirable species from Turkey.  I've grown a few similar looking species that were collected in Turkey, but there is such a raft of species in Turkey, that it is hard to accurately key them out.  

Weitse, thanks for treating us to such oniony delights.  For a look at more Allium species, a few that are rarely seen, stay tuned for Part 2 of my "For the love of Onions" feature article in the upcoming summer issue of the NARGS Rock Garden Quarterly.

[TheOnionMan]

Just as follow-up on my comments above about the curious invalid name of Allium "murrayanum", please see this post that I made in the Allium 2010 topic:  http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5766.msg169884#msg169884
The final word on this is: there is no such thing as Allium "murrayanum", even though such a name is often seen in cultivation.

Wietse, I went back and took a look at your photo entry on Allium "murrayanum", and what I'm seeing in those photos is a form of Allium senescens, the ubiquitous imposter among allium species... sorry

[wmel]

Wietse, I went back and took a look at your photo entry on Allium "murrayanum", and what I'm seeing in those photos is a form of Allium senescens, the ubiquitous imposter among allium species... sorry

We are buying allium everywere we can, and a lot of times we get a allium we already have under an other name, sometimes it is one we do not have and we assume the name is right....... also in the case os allium murrayanum ( sold by Dix export ). I am sure there are more allium on my website who turn out not being what I assumed the are, but please tel me if that is the case, because I want al name's to be good!

Most American allium is growing very good in Holland, ofcourse there is always an exception.

A. howellii var. clockeyi is one that is not growing very fast, but it is growing without any problems here, also from seed.
I am sure we can trade some seeds, because I'm sure you have a lot of allium that is not in my collection yet......and very beautiful to!
but please let me know which seed you like, because I do not keep seed from al allium ( to much work! )

The form of A. campanulatum you show is particularly deep colored... folks, notice the tell-tale dark ring of color near the center of the flower.  That dark ring is also present in the closely allied A. membranaceum which is also shown here, showing the relationship between these two fine western American species.

I didn't know that, but now you tel me I see it.....

A. trautvetterianum is a very difficult allium. I bought one bulb about 10 years ago. It is not making ofsets, and only a few seeds. From that seeds I have now about 10 new flowering bulbs. ( 9 of them were just trautvetterianum, and one is a crossing with Allium caspium  subsp. baissunense (see photo below) . My first trautvetteranum last only one year!

A. dasyphyllum I have now for almost 10 years, and it is still one bulb and never any seed was found on the plant. It is a real beauty, but very difficult ......

I read the NARGS Rock Garden Quarterly and I wil wait for your article!!!

tuncelianum 2011 10.JPG
trautvetteranum x baisunense 2011 1.JPG
giganteum x trautvetteranum 2011 1.JPG
regelii 2011 2.JPG

[wmel]

The form of A. campanulatum you show is particularly deep colored... folks, notice the tell-tale dark ring of color near the center of the flower.  That dark ring is also present in the closely allied A. membranaceum which is also shown here, showing the relationship between these two fine western American species.

I didn't know that, but now you tel me I see it.....

A. trautvetterianum is a very difficult allium. I bought one bulb about 10 years ago. It is not making ofsets, and only a few seeds. From that seeds I have now about 10 new flowering bulbs. ( 9 of them were just trautvetterianum, and one is a crossing with Allium caspium  subsp. baissunense (see photo below) . My first trautvetteranum last only one year!

A. dasyphyllum I have now for almost 10 years, and it is still one bulb and never any seed was found on the plant. It is a real beauty, but very difficult ......

I read the NARGS Rock Garden Quarterly and I wil wait for your article!!!

Sorry, something went wrong. only the first two lines above are the quoteThe rest was wrote by me as answer to TheOnionMan
!!

[TheOnionMan]

Wietse, I had a misspelling in my response, so I corrected the name of A. howellii var. clokeyi (I mistyped it as clockeyi). By the way, you can re-edit your own SRGC Forum messages, and fix the problem where the quoted text of what I say ran into your additional comments... use the small icon to the lower right of your original message to Edit the original message, or use the Modify button in the upper right of your original message.... at the end of what I had written, end the quotation by adding the forum syntax of [/quote] after my part and before your additional comments, and it should be fixed.  Maybe Maggi can fix it for you.

[TheOnionMan]

We are buying allium everywere we can, and a lot of times we get a allium we already have under an other name, sometimes it is one we do not have and we assume the name is right....... also in the case os allium murrayanum ( sold by Dix export ). I am sure there are more allium on my website who turn out not being what I assumed the are, but please tel me if that is the case, because I want al name's to be good!

Most American allium is growing very good in Holland, of course there is always an exception.

A. howellii var. clokeyi is one that is not growing very fast, but it is growing without any problems here, also from seed.
I am sure we can trade some seeds, because I'm sure you have a lot of allium that is not in my collection yet......and very beautiful to!
but please let me know which seed you like, because I do not keep seed from all allium ( to much work! )

A. trautvetterianum is a very difficult allium. I bought one bulb about 10 years ago. It is not making ofsets, and only a few seeds. From that seeds I have now about 10 new flowering bulbs. ( 9 of them were just trautvetterianum, and one is a crossing with Allium caspium  subsp. baissunense (see photo below) . My first trautvetteranum last only one year!

A. dasyphyllum I have now for almost 10 years, and it is still one bulb and never any seed was found on the plant. It is a real beauty, but very difficult ...

Very useful information Wietse, not all alliums grow like weeds (as many people think) and lots of species can be difficult and rarely increase, as you have stated about A. trautvetterianum and dasyphyllum.  But you do so well with so many species, it is a joy to see so many desirable Allium species growing luxuriantly in a garden.

The name Allium "murrayanum" has no meaning, it is an invalid name, and has been invalid for nearly 200 years... most often plants bearing this name are A. unifolium.  The plant you show on your website under this name is a form of Allium senescens, the great imposter of other allium species.

You wrote "please let me know which seed you like".  That is most generous of you, and we can certainly communicate privately on trading seed.  I am very impressed with your plants of Allium tuncelianum, it has such "stature" in the garden, and I would indeed like to try growing it from seed please.  You must show us when it flowers.

The trautvetterianum x baissunense cross is outstanding; looks perfectly intermediate between the two species, with a distinctive look and not just another "great purple ball" of flowers.  Many of the regular Melanocrommyum section crosses between such closely allied species as A. giganteum, elatum, aflatunense, etc., yield many of the hard-to-distinguish great purple ball types, but it gets fun when such species like Allium atropurpureum get crossed, adding a "new look and color" to the hybrid selections.  The cross you show of A. trautvetterianum x baissunense looks distinctive to me, with much broader tepals and a more substantial look to the globe of flowers, very beautiful, but for many people not as familiar with Alliums, it'll look just like yet another "great purple ball". I like it very much, all of these great purple balls are wonderful accents in the garden.

Allium regelii I grew only briefy, for 3-4 years, again from Arnis Seisums.  It produced one undersized immature flower head without the 2nd tier of blooms, and then disappeared.  It would be very interesting to cross A. regelii with one of the big purple ball allium species, to see if it is possible to get a hybrid with multiple tiered balls of bloom on a single flower stalk.

[bulborum]

Allium regelii It would be very interesting to cross A. regelii with one of the big purple ball allium species, to see if it is possible to get a hybrid with multiple tiered balls of bloom on a single flower stalk.

Mark

This is a cross where the Dutch growers are talking about sins 20-30 years
I remember a talk over 25 years ago
when Ton Langendijk was creating his famous Allium Ambassador
He offered me 1000 Dutch guilders for a single bulb

In that time I was setting up a collection Allium
for the botanic gardens from Haren in the north of Holland
I got loads of parcels with seeds from all botanic gardens all over the world
After 3 years I quit with this job
thousands of misnamed pots where thrown away
most Allium cyathophorum var. farreri 
a real weed in the botanic gardens

But Ton was and is still is dreaming from this cross
sure if he can get one bulb
he is one of the best to do the job
maybe together with Wietse (two know more as one)

if you know a few spare seeds
he will be happy

I tried to get them from Tony hall from Kew
but they just had one bulb without flowers at that time
collected in Afghanistan if I remember well

Roland

[wmel]

I am very impressed with your plants of Allium tuncelianum, it has such "stature" in the garden, and I would indeed like to try growing it from seed please.  You must show us when it flowers.

Allium regelii I grew only briefy, for 3-4 years, again from Arnis Seisums.  It produced one undersized immature flower head without the 2nd tier of blooms, and then disappeared.  It would be very interesting to cross A. regelii with one of the big purple ball allium species, to see if it is possible to get a hybrid with multiple tiered balls of bloom on a single flower stalk.

Of course I will show a Photo when allium tuncelianum is flowering. The stems will be al straight then, and different then the whole plant; the flower is not very spectacular, just a little grey, but with very fine and tiny flowerhead.

allium regelii is again an allium that is very difficult to grow. It stays 1 bulb for about 7 years now, and I have about 3 or 4 seeds every year, but they never germinate

When I look to the flower of allium regelii it could be a close relative to allium winkelerianum and cupiliferum. maby a crossing with one of them will work??  

I will keep some seeds of allium tuncelianum for you. This is one of the alliums I keep every year to get some more, and the first seed from 2007 is starting to flower this year  .

siskyonense 2 2011.JPG
schubertii x rose nigrum 2 2011.JPG
howelii clokeyi 2 2011.JPG
crenulatum x falcifolium 1 2011.JPG
crenulatum 1 2011.JPG
chloranthum 2 2011.JPG

                        

[wmel]

There are some allium we bought the last years from several addresses, but we do not see any differences between them.
Can someone tel me the difference between allium platicaule and allium tolmiei var. platyphyllum??
And is there a picture of allium carolinianum, because what we have as carolinianum is something else. and what is the allium we call carolinianum? (see photo below)