February Narcissus 2011

[Gerry Webster]

Thanks again Rafa. It's about time you produced a book!

[ashley]

I did a quickly scheme

Excellent Rafa.  Thank you for this.
I'll try to post some asturiensis forms next weekend, for comparison.

And I second Gerry on the book

[David Nicholson]

... and I'll third that.

Arnold she is a gorgeous little thing. Did Brian actually name it, or just refer to it's attribute please?

[ArnoldT]

David:

Brian  just referred to it's attributes.

[David Nicholson]

Arnold, thankls for that.

[Lesley Cox]

So N, minor is really just a large (taller) form of asturiensis. Presumably then, N asturiensis 'Cedric Morris' and N. a 'Douglasbank.'

[annew]

Thanks again Rafa. It's about time you produced a book!

Please, Rafa! A monograph is greatly needed.

[Hans A.]

SUPERB Drawings,Rafa!

Thanks again Rafa. It's about time you produced a book!

Please, Rafa! A monograph is greatly needed.

I agree totally! Always when I think I have understood somehing in this genus, I become aware I am completly lost.

Here two given to me by a friend of this forum: Narcissus hedraeanthus

[Rafa]

oh thank you!,you are making me blush... they are worthless, just sketch to explain the species that I personally support.

There is a official key in Flora Iberica, which is a deppartament from CSIC (Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Científicas). Maybe I might seen arrogant, because I am just a humble gardener a not a scientifist, but I disagree with most of things in Narcissus Volume. http://www.floraiberica.es/floraiberica/texto/imprenta/tomoXX/20_184_05_Narcissus.pdf

I learn about this genus thanks to my friends Javier Fernández Casas and Alfredo Barra, most prestigious researchers. Even with them I sometimes disagree... By the way, "bad news" hahaha, F. Casas has retired the species he dedicated to his wife Narcissus eugeniae.

If I were you I would forget names like N. minor because although you can go to see in the nature, where it was collected? Hispania? this is like nothing. And unless these names  N. asturiensis 'Cedric Morris' or N. Douglasbank, Antiquera etc... were hybrids (and not natural), I consider this practice to name a plant after someone, when it has already been described by a proffesional botanist, somehow unethical.

Imagine that I collect a particular narcissus form and I introduce it in culture under my name, or my cousin's name.. it wouldn't be serious.... it could be a chaos of non accepted names just to increase the sales.

Hans, I would say the first one is N. hedraeanthus and the second  N. blancoi. My friend F. Casas don't support this species and consider it is all N. hedraeanthus, but although I can't porve it I still thinking N. blancoi is a valid species.
Peter Taggar has sent me also some pictures.

Narcissus hedraeanthus is a very polymorph species, geographycally I consider it grows only in Cazorla, Segura and las Villas mountain ranges. You can see pure white forms and pale yellow forms.

[Darren]

Rafa,

I absolutely agree with your comments regarding naming of naturally occurring plants after individuals. In fact I'd go further than that. I was a little horrified to discover that, for instance, the dwarf coastal form of Calochortus albus now has a 'cultivar' name, even though it simply reflects a stable, natural, ecotype. Eucomis vandermerwei has also attracted names for forms wholly within the range of variation I expect from a single capsule of seed. Fair enough for real oddities such as albino forms, man-made hybrids etc but otherwise the botanical name should be enough. Perhaps it is related to the gardening public being afraid of latin names?

I feel that perhaps the cactus & succulent fraternity approach is better: distinct ecotypes are generally referred to by locality (or collection number) in order to distinguish them. For instance Conophytum luckhoffii SH500 I know is from a much larger-bodied population than the EVJ collection of the same species.

By the way - I've had superb germination of various Narcissus collections made by you and obtained from the Archibalds lists.

[ian mcenery]

Rafa,

I absolutely agree with your comments regarding naming of naturally occurring plants after individuals. In fact I'd go further than that. I was a little horrified to discover that, for instance, the dwarf coastal form of Calochortus albus now has a 'cultivar' name, even though it simply reflects a stable, natural, ecotype. Eucomis vandermerwei has also attracted names for forms wholly within the range of variation I expect from a single capsule of seed. Fair enough for real oddities such as albino forms, man-made hybrids etc but otherwise the botanical name should be enough. Perhaps it is related to the gardening public being afraid of latin names?

Darren I think it's called Marketing

[annew]

 By the way, "bad news" hahaha, F. Casas has retired the species he dedicated to his wife Narcissus eugeniae.

Hmmm - what should I name them now?
Hans, your Narcissus collection just increased by one species!

[Lesley Cox]

Rafa and Darren, I'm pleased to read your comments because I've talked about this before and thought I was a lone voice on the subject. I totally agree with you that the giving of cultivar-type names to wild plants is outrageous, whether a person's name or any other, except to identify habit, locality etc. Marketing it may well be, but to my mind the principle and chief organization to be blamed is the Royal Horticultural Society who apparently demand that any plant must have such a name if it is to receive an award, or maybe even worse, must have such a name before it is put up for an award. That a UK nurseryman can collect plants in the remoter regions of NZ's mountains then "name" them after his wife or grandmother or his own nursery, is totally unacceptable and a disgrace. Who the hell does he think he is? And yes, it happened a while back. I can never get past Pratia angulata 'Tim Rees,' a wild plant from Papua New Guinea but given that name because that person apparently died while part of the group which first collected the plant. Much more acceptable would have been to call the plant, when it reached cultivated status, P. a. New Guinea form, which would have easily distinguished it from the very different New Zealand form.

[Rafa]

I'm not sure, but I think N.eugeniae is considered by his author as N. confusus...

In the other hand he has publish an extremely beautiful new Apodanthi species Narcissus ocasus, it is a rupicola with erect lance leaves and 3 flowers per scape. It grows in Algarve, Portugal.

Also there is a new species N. matiasii (a pseudonarcissus from Huesca) and a new divison in N. cuatrecasasii: N. gadorensis (from Almería) N. cuatrecasasii (Cazorla, Jaén) and  N. arundanum from (Grazalema), Cádiz.

[Gerry Webster]

In the other hand he has publish an extremely beautiful new Apodanthi species Narcissus ocasus, it is a rupicola with erect lance leaves and 3 flowers per scape. It grows in Algarve, Portugal.

Rafa - is this the relatively recently discovered plant from the Algarve which has been regarded as a form of N. calcicola?