February Narcissus 2011

[ian mcenery]

Ian, your very nice little daff looks like it as a touch of cyclamineus blood in it.

Anne now you come to mention it there does seem to be some influence in the trumpet though the petals are not reflexed

I also have this one which has come from wild colllected seed I think which was received as asturiensis but is much taller than the previous plant. Be interested in any opinions. It is about 8" (20cm ) tall

[annew]

Oh dear - I almost wish I hadn't asked!
This is one I have as Narcissus cantabricus subsp. luteolentus. Is it remotely like albidus?

[Gerry Webster]

Very nice Anne. What does 'RV' stand for?

[Rafa]

It's important to know where the bulbs were collected. If you support N. blancoi and N. albicans, it is important to know spanish geography and the distribution of N. cantabricus, N. hedraeanthus and N. bulbocodium L.

This is not a simple problem in my oppinion, and it is even more complex because there are places where N. blancoi and N. albicans are making crosses... impossible to find the parentes and the hybrids . In this place in addition there is left only one ancient parent, N. cantabricus.

In the pictures, you could see two variants of N. albicans, probably due two ancient fertile hybrids varieties (when the mother was cantabricus or bulbocodium)

[David Nicholson]

Mine too. Nice little daff Ian.

Here is Narcissus cantabricus 'Antequera' from Paul Christian's catalogue last year although the catalogue spelling was 'Antiquera which must be wrong. A pretty little thing but I don't think it warrents a name I'd be just as happy with it as N. cantabricus.

David - I think the name of the town can be spelled either way. I had 'Antiquera' from Christian a couple of years ago which  looked completely different! I killed it fairly quickly. I remember some time ago Diane Clement posted a photo of plants in the wild near this town which looked rather more like the one I had:

http://www.srgc.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4631.msg118739#msg118739

Gerry, many thanks for the reference. Having read what Ian Young said in that discussion then it looks as though my plant could well be Narcissus cantabricus ssp. cantabricus (ie white tube, petals, filaments and style, with exsered style). Or have I got it wrong?

[David Nicholson]

Anne this is a list of synonyms

≡ Corbularia albicans Haworth, Syn. pl. succ. app.: 332, nº 1* (1812); Narciss. revis.: 122-
123, nº ii.4 (1819)

= Narcissus Graëllsii Graells var. granatensis del Amo, Restaur. Farm. 1861: 7-8 (1861)

≡ Narcissus nivalis Graells var. granatensis (del Amo) del Amo, Fl. Fan. Peníns. Ibérica 1:
493-494 (1871)

≡ Narcissus ×litigiosus del Amo nvar. granatensis (del Amo) Fernández Casas, Fontqueria
55(35): 273 (2005)

= Narcissus ×Magni-Antonii Fernández Casas, Fontqueria 14: 18-19, nº 82 (27-ii-1987), ut
Narcissus cantabricus De Candolle × N. tenuifolius Salisbury

= Narcissus ×Barræ Fernández Casas, Fontqueria 14: 18, nº 80 (27-ii-1987), ut Narcissus
Bulbocodium Linnaeus × N. cantabricus De Candolle

= Narcissus ×neocarpetanus Rivas Ponce, Soriano & Fernández Casas nothovar. romanensis
Ureña, Anales Jard. Bot. Madrid 43(1): 185 (1986), ut Narcissus Bulbocodium
Linnaeus × N. cantabricus De Candolle
In my opinion this is a valid hybrid, from my friend Fernando Ureña, but probably is N. albicans in the place of N. cantabricus one of the parents, we are studying this...

≡ Narcissus cantabricus De Candolle subsp. luteolentus Barra & G. López, Anales Jard.
Bot. Madrid 39(1): 73 (1982) I support this species, but not a subsp. from cantabricus, it is in fact N. blancoi

= Narcissus Blancoi Barra & G. López, Anales Jard. Bot. Madrid 50(1): 123 (1992), nom.
nov. pro Narcissus cantabricus De Candolle subsp. luteolentus Barra Lázaro & López
González (1982) I personally support this species, (although I can't prove it) because is the same case than N. albicans, it is also a young species but in this case I think its origin was a successful hybrid between N. cantabricus and N. hedraeanthus. N. albicans would be a successful hybrid between N. cantabricus and N. bulbocodium L.

My head hurts

[annew]

Mine too!
So if I have this right, there are 2 species: blancoi which is derived from an ancient cross of cantabricus and hedreanthus (which is the proper name for cantabricus subsp luteolentus), and albicans derived from an ancient cross of cantabricus and bulbocodium (which bulbocodium? I may regret asking that).
Are plants that I have under the name of hedreanthus subsp luteolentus really blancoi, then? Assuming they were correctly identified in the first place?
 Deep breath.

Here is a pot of new babies from one of my first crosses using hybrids as parents - Candlepower x cyclamineus.

[David Nicholson]

Very nice Anne and a good range of colours too.

[Rafa]

Exactly, this is that I thought.
The Narcissus bulbocodium is the species described by Linneo. Narcissus bulbocodium L.

In Flora Iberica, you will see that N. blancoi, N. albicans and N. cantabricus subsp. luteolentus are considered the same: Narcissus hedraeanthus subsp. luteolentus. Many of us are absolutely disagree with this and we support N. albicans as a valid species. Also many of us support N. blancoi, and the reason to support both species is because we think they have different origin. Both are young species, very polymorphic and also you can see in the field they are searching their correct inhabit, in some cases they are pushing away the ecological role from one or both hypotetical parents.

This is MY theory, to explain the origin of this accepted species. For example my friend F. Casas are disagree with me and also A. Barra...

In addition, I explain such a variability, in both species because probably there were two hybrid direction in both species depending which parent provides female gamets.

Narcissus cantabricus DC. x Narcissus bulbocodium L.---fertile---> N. albicans (cantabricus like)
                                                                                                        -----both--------> N. albicans (stable form)
Narcissus bulbocodium L.  x Narcissus cantabricus DC.--fertile---> N. albicans (bulbocodium like)


Narcissus cantabricus DC. x Narcissus hedraeanthus (Heldrich) Colmeiro---fertile---> N. blancoi (cantabricus like)
                                                                                                                             ----both--------> N. blancoi (stable form)
Narcissus hedraeanthus (Heldrich) Colmeiro x Narcissus cantabricus DC. --fertile---> N. blancoi (hedraeantus like)


Concerning N. albicans, is not difficoult to see this porcess in the field, because the inhabits are almost untouched, and very little 1km square in some populations. But the places were N. hedraeanthus and N. cantabicus supposedly grew are completely modified, and it is currently only possible to find N. blancoi with N. cantabricus, but not blancoi with N. hedraeanthus. And also impossible to find the  N. cantabricus and N. hedraeanthus meeting place. We are talking about 200km square or more....

I think most of North African species (romieuxii, albidus, etc...) are versions of N. albicans and N. bancoi, that evolved separately since Pangea division.

[arilnut]

Rafa,  you are wayyyyyyy over my head! Like to the next Galaxie.

John B

[Rafa]

hahah, John, it's just that I live in this part of the world which is the center in the origin of Narcissus genus.... But please, understand all that I told here as my personal vision from these narcissi.

There are similar cases in Peninsula Iberica, like N. dubius, N. tortifolius, N. obosoletus.... probably there is currently a N. moronensis? at the same time than N. x alentejanus var. moronensis

[tonyg]

I follow the reasoning Rafa - it makes good sense.  Some very nice photos to illustrate the plants too.
It will always be hard to put names to plants in cultivation, especially as we grow a range of species and forms very close together.  Then we raise more from seed ..... what to call these I can only guess! 

For myself I have observed little variation in the seedlings from N albidus and N cantabricus ssp cantabricus that I have raised from my own seed.  Perhaps the cool weather at flowering means that most are self pollinated..... one day I will make controlled crosses, when children have grown!

[annew]

probably there is currently a N. moronensis?

Is Rafa having a joke with us?
Tony - albidus or albicans?

[Maggi Young]

probably there is currently a N. moronensis?

Is Rafa having a joke with us?
Tony - albidus or albicans?

 I think this is confusion with Galanthus moronensis.... a very common plant  

[Rafa]

hahaha ..., no, seriously... We currently know that N. x perez-larae is a fertile species in the "orphan" location in Valencia. This year I also saw it in Cádiz, but very few plants. The name for this plant is Narcissus piifontianus and its origin is a successful hybrid between Narcissus cavanillesii and Narcissus obsoletus (old N. miniatus).
But what I am suggesting is that the same process is ocuring between N. serotinus and N. cavanillesii. This crosses was discovered by our friend Karl Gerd Knoche and he called it N. x moronensis. Unfortunately it was published later than N. x alentejanus. This hybrid have three varieties, probabily the cross is in two directions, when the mother is cavanillesii and when the mother is serotinus, and also variety in the middle:
var. moronensis (serotinus like)
var. knochei (middle like)
var. alentejanus (cavanillesii like)

I think var. moronensis could be in fact a fertil hybrid.