February Narcissus 2011

[Maggi Young]

A few weeks ago a large holly tree in our neighbour's garden was taken down.... this year we may have to give more thought to what temperature is reached in the narcissus house which has been getting shade from this tree for many years.
 Of course, with Aberdeen weather, it may not make any difference at all

[annew]

Here is an assortment of N. asturiensis group plants that I've had from various sources for you all to play with. I've been looking at Rafa's drawing on page 20 of this thread and think the first one might be N. muñozii-garmendiae. What do you think? The habitat photo was taken in Portugal (I don't have that one).

[Graham Catlow]

A few weeks ago a large holly tree in our neighbour's garden was taken down.... this year we may have to give more thought to what temperature is reached in the narcissus house which has been getting shade from this tree for many years.
 Of course, with Aberdeen weather, it may not make any difference at all

A large cherry tree on my garden boundary was taken down a few weeks ago and I am now hoping my Crocosmia 'Lucifer and Liliums will grow vertically and not at 45 degrees.

[Rafa]

really nice Anne!, I would say all are N. asturiensis, except the third,that I would say N. jacetanus.
What about this Alstroemeria pygmaea! I lost many plants from you  

Some narcissi blooming today. I choose these species to talk about N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus. As you can see it has the yellow colour from N. bulbocodium, but it should have the yellow from N. pallidiflorus, shouldn't it? Well, In most of low altitude localities from N. triandrus subsp. pallidulus you can find this pure yellow forms, the closer you get to Portugal this pure yellow forms starting to be more common. This has ben described as N. triandrus subsp. lusitanicus.

[annew]

Rafa, the Alstromeria is a weed! it is coming through the drainage holes in my pots to appear with the narcissi! You can have as much as you like, I will send you some more.

[ashley]

Very nice asturiensis Anne with interesting variation, some showing only very slight waisting of the coronas. 
Rafa, is your suggestion of jacetanus for #3 based on the more glaucous stem or are there other significant features?

That pallidiflorus is a beauty too; first seedlings are just appearing here so (slugs permitting) I have only 2-3 years to wait

[Diane Clement]

I hope that Rafa will help with the ID of this, seen a couple of days ago, west of Denia in the region of Valencia.  I initially thought it was N tortifolius but not sure the leaves are broad and long enough.  On arriving home and consulting Blanchard's book, I wonder if it is N dubius.  It seemed more creamy white than the pure white of N papyraceus.  It was quite strongly scented and interestingly, the scent was more like N jonquilla than N papyraceus.  I'm currently struggling with a new camera, so apologies for picture quality.  In the past I would not have dreamed of taking a picture without a tripod but was risking this hand held using the vibration reduction setting.

[Maggi Young]

Diane, this white narcissus is a real gem.
 Did you bottle some of the fragrance? I find myself  wanting to sniff the screen.... how desperate am I?

[Gerry Webster]

Diane - I'll be interested to see how Rafa responds since I've recently spent a bit of time trying to confirm the identity of a trade plant I have. According to Blanchard there is a difference in the leaves; in N. dubius the outer face is striated, in N. tortifolius it is flat. On this basis, mine seems to be the former but the leaves - on a very young plant - are slightly twisted whereas Blanchard describes them as untwisted. In N. tortifolius the epithet is said to be appropriate. Usual Narcissus variability I suppose.

[Diane Clement]

Diane - I'll be interested to see how Rafa responds since I've recently spent a bit of time trying to confirm the identity of a trade plant I have. According to Blanchard there is a difference in the leaves; in N. dubius the outer face is striated, in N. tortifolius it is flat. On this basis, mine seems to be the former but the leaves - on a very young plant - are slightly twisted whereas Blanchard describes them as untwisted. In N. tortifolius the epithet is said to be appropriate. Usual Narcissus variability I suppose.  

I once grew N tortifolius but no longer have it, and I do have N dubius but it never flowers with me.  Comparing the climate of the area we visited and the climate back home, I am surprised either of them survived with me at all.  
Unfortunately I didn't take Blanchard's book with me, so didn't get the full information on the plant regarding the leaf shape and structure.  At the time, I thought it must be a hybrid between N papyraceus (for the flower shape) and a species from the jonquilla section (for the different scent and the fact it was not pure white, more creamy).  The pictures of N tortifolius in Blanchard and also from Rafa show broader leaves for N tortifolius :
http://ko.treknature.com/gallery/photo232579.htm

On getting home and looking through Blanchard, I realised that N dubius occurs as far south as we were, which I did not previously realise, and it seems to fit better than N tortifolius, although the colour of the flower is still not quite right.  I'll still not really sure, so will wait for expert proclamation  

[annew]

It's very nice, Diane. How big was it?

[Rafa]

Ashley, also N. jacetanus has wider leaves than N. asturiensis.

Very nice problem... I think narcissus dubius is one of the most interesting species from this genus, and its origing is not solved at all in my oppinion.

Many people consider N. dubius has an hybridogen origin between N. assoanus and N. papyraceus, my personal oppinion is that this is wrong.

I support that N. assoanus is involved in the origin, but the other parent has been extinct by the successful hybrid N. dubius. And we are currently seeing the next step in their evolution: N. x pujolii ("retrecross" () between N. dubius and his parent N. assoanus) and N. x cardonae (N.tazetta x N. dubius) a new hybrid from my friend F. LLoret.

There are not N. papyraceus or N. pannizianus (if you support it) in the principal distribution regions of N. dubius: Cataluña, Valencia, Zaragoza, Navarra.... and in south France neither.

There are currently hybrids between N. assoanus and N. papyraceus in the south and they don't remember at all  N. dubius.

BUT, we discovered a relict species in Cataluña that we consider it as the ancestral of N. papyraceus. It is like a little N. papyraceus, totaly hardy, that is very possible it was one of the parents from N. dubius.

Many times I deubt with some identifications, beacuse you can find yellow forms in N. dubius, in some localities, that could remeber N. x pujolii. I think in the past this form was more common, but finnaly N. dubius is white due the speciation.

http://www.biodiversidadvirtual.org/herbarium/Narcissus-dubius-Gouan-img29378.html
http://www.biodiversidadvirtual.org/herbarium/Narcissus-dubius-Gouan-img29377.html
http://www.biodiversidadvirtual.org/herbarium/Narcissus-dubius-Gouan-img29379.html
http://www.biodiversidadvirtual.org/herbarium/Narcissus-dubius-Gouan-img29376.html
http://www.biodiversidadvirtual.org/herbarium/Narcissus-dubius-Gouan-img29375.html

We are crossing in controled conditions N. assoanus with N. sp# tazettae to see what happen.

About N. tortifolius, this species is recently considered as N. pachybolbus, but this is wrong in my oppinion. N. pachybolbus is N. papyraceus 2n= 22 (Pajarón,1985) and N. tortifolius  2n= 36. It is a very robust species with wide leaves and twisted leaves, very glaucous and many many tunics in the bulbs. This is not important because they are only adaptations to the drought.

This is a watercolour I did for F. Casas, N. tortifolius was his first description in this genus.

[Rafa]

some piectures from this evening

[Maggi Young]

This is a watercolour I did for F. Casas, N. tortifolius was his first description in this genus.

 Oh, my word, that is exquisite! 

[annew]

Really beautiful painting. So Althea is the one who hunts down the narcissi?