Daffodils in the Southern Hemisphere - 2007

[Mini-daffs]

 
Hmmm. Contrived??? No more contrived than any other of our miniatures I would suggest. The thing about the N. cordubensis is that it is a very neat split of six. That matches the perianth segments. That is the same as our N. jacetanus seedling.
Some of the split pollen ended up on some nice standard reverse bicolor miniatures.
OK how would your alpine garden shows treat our miniatures with too many petals? It is naturally occurring when you grow large numbers of seedlings. Bit like N. cyclamineus can come with 2 florets occasionally.
Maggie, I don't do much yellow hybridising any more. I like to produce flowers that change colour over time. Makes the RHS colour chart almost impossible to work with. It also makes the colour code for daffodils a bit redundant. I am quite taken with our jonquilla hybrids that have different coloured florets on the same stem. 3 or 4 flowers all differently coloured.
In terms of coloured miniatures, I have achieved my aim of breeding 6W-P, 6Y-P and 7W-P miniatures. We have produced reverse bicolor and white miniatures so that leaves us with high quality Y-R, W-R, W-O and O-O  miniatures.
One thing has helped us. When we started out breeding daffodils we produced a lot of intermediate sized seedlings. This was one of the reasons we turned to miniatures--our standard daffodils were just too small.
However, those very seedlings have helped us produce coloured miniatures. We didn't throw them out so we have a large stock of breeding material. These intermediates are more valuable than any exhibition quality standards that we have bred.  Some of intermediates have short stems because I used some of our very small hybrids to produce them. Just the right thing for breeding coloured miniatures as it turned out.
Helen liked white-pinks, white and reverse bicolors so we bred them.

[Martin Baxendale]

Graham, I meant to mention, but forgot to, that the split-cup N. corbudensis looked very good, very regular. And the jonquil hybrid with different-coloured florets is very interesting. I'm trying to imagine what it might be like taken to extremes through future breeding, with even more contrasting differences in floret colours. I can imagine purists might be quite shocked    but I'd bet such a novel development could have considerable commercial appeal. My own tastes in flowers are moving gradually from demure and unostentatious more and more towards the garish and eye-catching as I get older. Not sure what the psychology of that is, but I suspect it's a desire to squeeze more sheer fun into life as it gets shorter 

[annew]

  Good grief - even I was (almost) taken with the split cup cordubensis, you can always pretend it's not a daffodil and then it's quite pretty! I'm intrigued about the ones with different coloured florets. Do they stay that colour or cycle round? Are they chimeras? What the heck is happening genetically?

[Lesley Cox]

I did indeed notice Graham and chose not to comment rather than be rude to you. (Note my restraint Maggi.) However, one thing I also noticed and I'd appreciate YOUR comment about it, was in the pic above the split cup, the flower had a nicely indented cup and I wondered whether daffs with that "scalloped" finish to the cup all had the potential to split. It seems almost to be the first step on the way to splitting. In which case, N.b. romieuxii `Joy Bishop' could also go that way at some time, presumably is some other conditions were right. what do you think?

Actually, while I don't like split cups in any daff at all, yours above gives the flower a hose-in-hose appearance which is similar to the artificial daffs being sold around NZ at present (officially on "Daffodil Day), the Cancer Society's big fund-raising event of the year. While I'm happy to donate to this cause, I prefer to wear a small `Gambus' or cyclamineus in my button hole or on my collar.

[Mini-daffs]

 
Hi
Lesley, it is all a matter of taste. I happen to like them and I don't mind them turning up occasionally among our species collection. I don't like twisted petals and I am not that keen on short fat miniatures that don't have much going for them. I am also not that keen on the standard 1Y-Y exhibition forms that have a certain sameness to them.
I do like nice scalloping and I wish I had more bulbocodiums with this characteristic.
Scalloping does not turn into splits. Splitting is genetic and occurs in a very small number of seedlings. Scalloping is more common, particularly amongst bulbocodiums (except mine). One of the more spectacular splits is the one where parts of the cup are actually missing (Tricollet is the parent of our form of these seedlings). Biggest problem is that if you over achieve you end up with a perianth and no cup!!
I have attached some photos from our photo library in relation to splits and colour. Martin, splits and colour seem to be your thing.
Lesley give the photos a miss if you don't like splits and colour.

[Mini-daffs]

 
Oops.
Anne, quite a few of our miniatures change colour over time. They can start off a sort off yellow and end up white or white with bands of gold. It is genetic and occurs because of the very complex parentage of the flowers. Lots of involved breeding. Unfortunately this has been an adverse feature of some of pink miniatures. When you want a stable colour you end with something that is pink one moment and white the next!! We do have several stable miniature W-Ps and they will be the key to future stable W-P miniatures. Far more interesting than boring yellow!! You probably have the seedlings that will enable you to do it if you do the right crosses.

[Joakim B]

I have been enjoying the pics a lot and since I am into the slightly vulgar in flowers (or how can I put it nicely flowers that stand out) "primadonnas", the last batch of pictures is great and will cause a great wanting in me.

I have been wondering how pink is pink? Now I see that pink IS pink. For the comercial 5 for 5€ it is NEVER the case atleast as what is available in Sweden. At the best they seem to be apricot. Does anyone know of "commercial" white and pinks?

Thanks for posting al the pics they are very enjoyable

Kind regards
Joakim

[annew]

What I was trying to ask was whether the different florets retained their differences as they matured.

[Martin Baxendale]

Graham, seeing those latest pics, I may have spoken too soon about liking garish!    I'm moving a bit more in that direction, but generally speaking the most garishly coloured and wilder split coronas in the large daffs aren't quite my thing just yet.

I do, however, find some of the more regular, shapely split coronas quite appealing, and especially in the miniatures where the effect seems somehow neater and more subdued by the overall size.

For example, I think that split corona N. watieri is the one you showed on the forum last year, and I still think it's very nice indeed. The intermediate 11 W-P also appeals to me in a wedding-cakey sort of way - it looks almost edible! Not so sure about the others though, especilally the ones that look a bit like splatted fried eggs. As I've always said, though, it's all a matter of personal taste and I'm sure there are plenty of other people who love them.

[David Nicholson]

I'm enjoying the pictures and the conversation but could someone enlighten me as to the numbering structure, eg. 11W-P. Is this a code Graham uses in his hybridisation programmes or a code structure used in the Narcissus showing world?

[mark smyth]

David it's the classification of Daffodils. Here are photos of each class
http://daffodilusa.org/daffodils/div.html

[mark smyth]

Sorry American Daffodil Society I lifted this from your web site
All Daffodils are classified into one of the thirteen divisions described below:

Division 1 - Trumpet
One flower to a stem, corona (trumpet or cup) as long or longer than the perianth segments (petals).

Division 2 - Large Cup
One flower to a stem, corona (cup) more than one third but less than equal to the length of the perianth segments (petals).

Division 3 - Short Cup
One flower to a stem, corona (cup) not more than one third the height of the perianth segments (petals).

Division 4 - Double
Daffodils have a clustered cup, petals or both.  There can be one or more flowers per stem.

Division 5 - Triandrus
Usually more than one flower to a stem, head drooping, perianth segments often reflexed and of silky texture.

Division 6 - Cyclamineus
One flower to a stem, perianth significantly reflexed and corona straight and narrow. Some exceptions exist.

Division 7 - Jonquilla
Usually several flower heads to a stem, flowers usually fragrant, stem is round in cross-section and foliage is often rush like.

Division 8 - Tazetta
Usually three to twenty flowers to a stout stem, sweet scented and very short cupped. Perianth segments rounded and often somewhat crinkled.

Division 9 - Poeticus
Usually one flower to a stem. White petals sometimes stained with the corona color at the base, small flat cup edged with red. Fragrant.

Division 10 - Bulbocodium Hybrids
Small flowers resemble a "hoop petticoat" form.

Division 11 - Split Corona
Corona split - usually more than half its length.

a) Collar Daffodils   Split-corona daffodils with the corona segments opposite the perianth segments; the corona segments usually in two whorls of three 
 
b) Papillon Daffodils   Split-corona daffodils with the corona segments alternate to the perianth segments; the corona segments usually in a single whorl of six 
 
Division 12 - Other Cultivars
Daffodils not falling into any of the previous categories.

Division 13 - Species
All species and reputedly wild forms.

[David Nicholson]

Thanks Mark, now I understand

[Lesley Cox]

I can live happily with other people having different taste - in everything. Not everyone loves Bach Beethoven and Brahams after all, and they can still be perfectly acceptable people 

[Mini-daffs]

 
Hi
Lots of nice apodanthe hybrids out at the moment together with some very tiny triandus hybrids.
Joakim, there are lots of standard white-pinks available. Dr John Reed has bred white-reds from the American pinks. I am not sure who you can purchase from but I am sure Mark Smyth could tell you who sells Brian Duncan's daffodils these days. If you can import them you can also import from either Mitsch or Oakwood Daffodils in the US. A fellow called Ron Scamp in the UK has some nice split cups. However, don't expect 5 for 5 euros. They sell exhibition daffodils like us so you will paying for the latest and greatest. Although you will be surprised to find out that as a general rule good standards are generally speaking a fraction of the price of good miniature daffodils! The 5 for 5 euros sellers are offering daffodils that were bred many many years ago that are now available in quantity.
The pinks you will see from us are primarily the Australian pink which is different to the cherry pink of the American breeders. Brian Duncan's pink is different again. However, our latest miniature 6W-P is more an American pink. Very odd because I can remember having one flower that early so I must have used pollen from a Show.
Lesley, don't read any further, it may offend! Martin, we have the technical skills to produce almost any colour or form of daffodil now so you can expect to see miniature split cups that are pretty well replicas of the standards in both colour and form in the fulness of time. How about an all pink miniature split cup? You may think I am joking but once you know we have more than one all apricot pink standard seedling you would realise that is in fact very possible.
Our friend at Glenbrook Bulb Farm has an extensive range of miniature doubles already.
David, the terminology that I use is that for daffodils. Mark has lifted the descriptions from the ADS web site but the ruling body for descriptions and naming of daffodils is the RHS. It is the International Daffodil Registrar. Colour codes are as per the [very expensive] RHS colour chart. And "yes" we have our own RHS colour chart so we can register our little darlings (I am running behind but that is life). All the information Mark has provided is available from the RHS website but it harder to find. Most of our splits are the collar form rather than the papillon form. What it does tell is that the RHS and the daffodil societies in the UK live in a separate world to the alpine garden world. Although Mark has ventured to the dark side by visiting Brian Duncan. Brian is breeding miniatures now and has quite an extensive collection of species daffodils to further his hybridising efforts.
Talking about missing things. I managed to flower N. cypri for the first time but did not realise that was what it was. I thought it was N. papyraceous! That will teach me not to check the labels.
Ann, once all florets are mature they are the same colour but by then the first floret may be dying because it is past its prime.
It may come as a surprise but some of the best scalloped bulbocodiums I have ever seen are raised by another hybridiser here in Canberra.  He also has a split cup bulbocodium. Unfortunately my photos of his flowers are not good but since I own the copyright I will post them. I am not sure but I think he has lost the scalloped bulbocodium in the drought.
Lesley, nice to hear you can live happily with other people having different taste. If you get a copy of the latest NZ Daffodil Journal you will see I have contributed to that august publication an article about our various hybridising programs. It has some nice photos as well. My maternal grandfather was from Nelson in NZ. His family were pioneers in that part of NZ.