Lilium 2011

[Tony Willis]

How many had they seen when they wrote the description?

[Pascal B]

OK, then I was looking in the right direction.....As the immaculati was separated from lutei by a comma I was a bit confused.

@ Tony, there are so many things that could have happened during history when describing a species, it really depends on the author, how the material came to them etc.... During the time of the missionaries a lot of material was simply shipped as dried specimen to Paris and published by people who had never seen the living plant. Many plants collected by Delavay for instance. If lucky the sheets were part of a set showing the various stages or manifestations/variety within a population but often it was merely a single specimen. They worked with what they got and after the publication when more info becomes available the description is updated and ammended. Only during the time of the great planthunters also seeds and/or living material was send to Europe. I have come across many issues while looking at Arisaema that literally meant reconstructing history to find out what the author exactly meant with the name (the history of Arisaema fargesii and franchetianum for instance is still muddled).

As this is merely making ochraceum a variety of primulinum it probably was just a matter of comparing both holotypes and protologues. But I am quessing now.

Do remember that plants can even be described from a leaf. Or just the flower. Reconstructing nomenclatural history of name is fun but very time consuming. Any volunteers for this one?

[arisaema]

By chance I took these photos in my garden in the middle of June.  I was sold the bulb as Lilium primulinum ochraceum and think this is correct.  It is hardy and long lived.  Does this help you with your discussion?

Do you know if the bulbs are white or purple? It looks an awful lot like L. ciliatum...

[greenspan]

yes, my first thought also...liz lily shows a vigorous + wonderful ciliatum, enviable

here some flower bud fotos of my poilanei...i got 8 bulbs of different size. the thin stems show 1 flower bud, the thicker ones 2 up to 6 flower buds. here 3 fotos each with 2 buds (foto 1+2 the same plant), last one with 6 buds. no doubt that this lily has an inflorescence of the raceme type. but young plants with only 2 buds can show both...umbel or raceme type. and this might be a phenomen of some other asiatic lilies.

@arisaema

can you show a foto of the L. duchartrei with 6 flowers/buds in a raceme? here my duchartrei (last year)...4 flowers umbel like. maybe insufficient flowers for a raceme.

[Liz Mills]

Many thanks you guys for putting me right.  I've now googled L ciliatum and this is definitely the plant I have - it solves the problem of the leaves and the green anthers which didn't match the description of L primulinum ochraceum in 'Lilies of the World' by Woodcock & Stearn (1950) which I use as my main reference book.  Interestingly they do not list Lilium ciliatum at all - has the name changed?  Also, Pascal, my plant has so far set no seed but as your interest is in Himalayan lilies I assume that seed from L ciliatum would not be of interest in any case.

This book also describes Lilium primulinum var primulinum as follows:
'Although this is the nomenclatural type of the species, it is really a form of var burmanicum  in which the purple marking of the throat has been lost.  It has self-coloured, unblotched flowers of primrose yellow with green filaments and was first imported from the Shan States of Upper Burma about 1890.'

[Pascal B]

Also, Pascal, my plant has so far set no seed but as your interest is in Himalayan lilies I assume that seed from L ciliatum would not be of interest in any case.

True. But I was not asking it specifically for myself. In general I think growers should put a lot more effort into propagating rare plants as ex situ conservation becomes more and more important, rare plants should not be imprisoned in collections. Seeing people mis-using newly imported rare plants for instance for hybridisation first always makes me a bit disappointed. There is nothing wrong with hybrids as long as the true species is firmly established into cultivation too but often that is not the case so a "pollen-exchange" section on the forum might not be a bad idea?. As I have no interest in non-Asian plants I didn't recognise it as ciliatum but as far as I can tell, it is quite a rarity and not at all common in the wild anymore.

[Regelian]

Here are three blooming this week.  Kushi Maya is particularly interesting being an L. nepalense hybrid

Kushi Maya
Big Brother
Conca d'Or

[gote]

There is something funny with the picture of primulinum in Curtis.
All lilium I have looked at for this feature, have two bracts. In an umbel of three flowers they form a whorl of six leaves. In an umbel of four there are eight leaves. In the whorl from four and upwards the count may be different with abortive bracts. If there is only one, terminal, flower this does not always apply - probably since there is no true pedicel.
Some liliums have branched pedicels. Lancifolium and speciosum are good examples. In those cases there is only one bract where the main pedicel goes out from the stem and the other bract sits where the secondary pedicel branches off. Sometimes there is no secondary pedicel but the second bract sits where it would have been.
The illustration shows four bracts where the pedicels branch out just as expected but there are tertiary bracts on the pedicels.
Cardiocrinum and Notholirion have only one bract. Nomocharis have two but terminal flowers may be deficient umbels with bracts for more flowers than acually present.
I do not grow sufficient numbers of Fritillaria to have an opinion on the number of bracts there.

I agree that the shape of the inflorecense should be a better criterion than tepal colour - especially since som many Lilium have forms with aberrant colour. Usually brick red turned into yellow.
However, duchartrei and lankongese seem to have all combinations of umbel/raceme and white/pink.

I agree very much with Pascal.

Göte
 

[arisaema]

Not mine, but I came across a few pictures of a stunning form of what must be L. sempervivoideum, and figured they might be of interest:

http://www.cfh.ac.cn/album/ShowPhoto.aspx?photoid=1fca649f-c71d-4c04-9023-9226651e62b0
http://www.cfh.ac.cn/album/ShowPhoto.aspx?photoid=9ee0bd25-44cc-410a-b61d-2d89bc8d4ead
http://www.cfh.ac.cn/album/ShowPhoto.aspx?photoid=8b249a2d-a11a-4e30-b53b-bcd86bd27cad

[Liz Mills]

Some members of the RHS Lily Group are trying to get a Pollen Exchange off the ground.  They also run a good Seed Exchange.

[PeterT]

Interesting nepalense hybred Jamie, and lots of wonderfull species, but a rather more common lilly at work last week, it has probably been growing effectively wild in this garden for 50 years or more

[fleurbleue]

Kushi Maya is a very nice  nepalense hybrid Jaimie 

[johnw]

A few flowers on the 1.75m high L. grayi thanks to the incredibly grey and wet last few months.  Brian, note how my flowers are orangish in the centre whilst yours are a lovely solid red.

johnw

[Pascal B]

Lilium sargentiae is flowering earlier this year than last year so hopefully I can get the seedpods to mature before the first frost. The ones I grow as the related sulphureum are just showing their buds and almost 2 meters tall now, much taller than last year. Both produce an abundance of green stem bulbils that had no problems getting through the winter, this years harvest will be donated to the seedex as I have them popping up all over the place, a simple gust of wind is all that is needed for that....

[Brian Ellis]

A few flowers on the 1.75m high L. grayi thanks to the incredibly grey and wet last few months.  Brian, note how my flowers are orangish in the centre whilst yours are a lovely solid red.

johnw

I think I was very lucky John, they came from the same supplier I assume?