Bulb smugglers detained...

[listera]

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=dutchmen-detained-on-tulip-smuggling-suspicions-2011-06-19

Some details may be flawed, but poaching was genuine.

[Gerry Webster]

Congratulations to the Turkish authorities!

[Ezeiza]

Why didn't they let these bulbs be taken for these two gentlemen to enjoy in their gardens? How selfish! What is the use of wild plants if people can not enjoy them in their gardens? A lot of species and special unique forms in the trade are regularly taken from the wild by gentlemen "to enjoy in their gardens". So openly in fact that they send photos to forum stating they were unique forms and the locations they were dug from.

Or, as is a widespread view in the United States, why should these valuable plants be left to lousy Brazilians, Argentinians or Mexicans (or Turkish in this case) when they could make good $$$$ to stuff an American's pocket?

[Pascal B]

What worries me more is that the students apparantly saw them collecting the plants and not took action then right at the spot. The plants are taken away from their habitat and end up in some institute. Don't care much about my fellow Dutchmen but what happens to the plants? Will they be replanted in their original location? Most likely not.... There are only losers in these cases with nature the most prominent one.

And Alberto, what about that new law in Brazil regarding cutting down trees? No doubt some of us will be sitting on chairs made from that wood.... Don't for a minute think the Turkish government cares much about nature, money rules all. They easily built a new road where rare plants occur. Catching these guys is sensational news but governments are the worst crooks.

[Lesley Cox]

A similar situation here where we see on a Monday night TV programme - we see it ad nauseam - that Fisheries officers let poachers take illegal paua (abalone) and other species, then bail them up and eventually prosecute them. The fish species in the meantime, die, out of their environment. Surely the would be poachers should be stopped as they poach, not after the event.

[alpines]

Or, as is a widespread view in the United States, why should these valuable plants be left to lousy Brazilians, Argentinians or Mexicans (or Turkish in this case) when they could make good $$$$ to stuff an American's pocket?

Am I correct in assuming Alberto that you are making a joke? It is not my impression that such views are "widespread" in the USA. On the contrary, plant protectionism is something the majority of my acquaintances take very seriously indeed. I am sure there are some unscrupulous collectors in most countries, and I am equally sure that the uneducated opportunist might dig up the occasional plant to take home with them, but I find it hard to imagine that there is a widespread opinion that any nationality is seen as "lousy" by the majority of Americans.

On the matter of this particular incident, I applaud the authorities for detaining the two individuals. These two individuals knew they were doing wrong. "Officials discovered numerous different plant species in small pots, a hidden compartment full of plant seeds, as well as tulip bulbs that had been concealed by newspapers."

Imagine the uproar if you had just paid thousands of dollars to visit these Turkish mountains only to find someone had dug up all the plants just before you arrived.

And where does it end? Are smugglers entitled to enter our gardens and steal our plants just because "they want to grow them in their gardens". I think not !!!

[johnw]

And Alberto, what about that new law in Brazil regarding cutting down trees?

Pascal -  Did you read these a few weeks ago?  Just days apart.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43169723/ns/us_news-environment/t/brazilian-activist-shot-dead-amazon/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/29/adelino-ramos-killed-murdered_n_868606.html

It seems to be a downward spiral.

johnw

[Ezeiza]

First, I deplore that Pascal, someone I admire so much as an authority and true scholar seems to give an argument to justify plundering. Where the bulbs end or if the Turkish authorities are good or bad is irrelevant.

What I really enjoy of this forum is that a lot of people here has right things right and do not see with good eyes fishy attitudes like selling wild dug plants. They are plant lovers and growing them is one of the pleasure they enjoy most in their lives, yet understand that digging plants for sale is wrong. And exactly as with animals a single specimen sold will amount for hundreds dead along the line.

Of course I was being sarcastic, Allan. And of course my mentioning the US is because over there the free market attitude is very prominent among certain nurserymen. Needless to say the largest proportion of the inhabitants has not the slightest idea of the subject. But the way this handful of people deals with "imported" plants is very decisive towards spot extermination of species.

We all love Galanthi, we all love Sternbergias, we all love Cyclamens. What would be the case now if they were not protected?

[Anthony Darby]

Is the term "upside down" tulips referring to fritillarias?

[Pascal B]

First, I deplore that Pascal, someone I admire so much as an authority and true scholar seems to give an argument to justify plundering. Where the bulbs end or if the Turkish authorities are good or bad is irrelevant.

Alberto, in no way I want to give any argument to justify plundering. The problem with these "news items" is that it seems sensational and that people compliment the Turkish government but that is not justified as the same Turkish Government will decide things that are worse because it is "economically benificial" and just like with so many less developed countries these 2 Dutchmen might as well could have been lucky facing a corrupt guy and could have gotten away with bribe. Then we would have never heard of it and bought the bulbs on E-bay blissfully unaware of where the bulbs came from..... So in my view nothing is great about such reports, it is sad on so many levels.

I am not saying plundering is not a serious problem (because it is) but nature conservation starts at the base. Arresting them is a political act and gives the false impression that the Turkish government are serious about nature conservation but in the end, it is the local individual environmentalist that truly cares. And like I said, why not stop these 2 guys while they are collecting?! Now there are a lot of plants at an institute in the hands of people that not necessarily know how to take care of them whereas they could still have been growing at the place they belong.

And my reference to the Brazilian situation and things like roadbuilding merely points out that nature conservation only has priority with (local) governments when no money or political pressures are involved. With upcoming elections for instance principles are easily thrown overboard, I have seen too many "wrongs" myself during travels to have faith in governments. It is only black and white for people that have never experienced reality in the wild habitats, for those who have witnessed or experienced corruption, so called "economic progress" and local problems know there are a lot of shades of grey when it comes to nature conservation. Nature and economic interests are in a constant fight with eachother and will always be. It is good both Dutchmen are arrested but it doesn't impress me or change my view on the Turkish situation.

Given the numbers reported I have no doubt these 2 were collecting more than "for personal use" but whether the newsreporter gives an accurate picture is something we never will know. They are arrested but don't stop there and make sure the plants go back where they belong instead of dying at an institute.

[Great Moravian]

Digging for business is certainly bad. But the article speaks about plant seeds. All plant seeds collected in nature
are naturally taken to the nature. It is clear.  It is irrelevant whether it is legal or illegal.
In reality, it is nearly always illegal. Who of you bothers about it if ordering seeds.
Concerning the roads, I was in Turkey in May. The road Antalya Konya crossing Taurus mountains
is modernized, broad and rectified, and therefore safer. The price is of course removed hills
and valleys filled in with building stone. Tulips flowered at the foots of gigantic embankments.
The position of Turkish authorities and journalists is certainly not protection of nature, but
protection of their national property against foreigners. It is legitimate and natural.
We dislike Poles collecting bilberries in  o u r  mountains too.

[Ezeiza]

A first expedition that comes out well lead to endless expeditions. Biarum distchianum and Sternbergia candida have been well "botanized" and they are by no means established in cultivation. Where did those plants in cultivation originated I wonder.

Speculation aside, that authorities catch poachers in the act always has a discouraging effect. Possible "enjoyers" will think it over after this happened and the authorities actually caught these two guys.

The same existence of thisforum express the concern of thousands and thousands of amateur growers: everyhwere  in it you can read about "growing from seed", "seed obtained from", "from seed in X years" and on and on.

The translation is doubtful at times. They were collecting plants. Seed could not be told apart except by top specialists, adn this within limits. How could be known on the spot to which species of "upside down tulip" the seed belonged to?

[Lesley Cox]

Is the term "upside down" tulips referring to fritillarias?

That's what I took it to mean in the original article. Understandable I suppose, but misleading.

[gote]

This is a very complicated issue. Just some observations:

In some parts of the world it is completely legal to put tarmac over the only Cypripedium in the province but illegal to move it to safety.

If a farmer finds an endangered species growing profusely on his property, he could make a profit by encouraging it and selling off the surplus but since he is not allowed to do it he has the incentive to kill them as weeds.

I happen to know about a famous institution wanting to rise orchids in order to reintroduce them into the wild. They were forbidden to gather seeds to do it.

Turkey wants to enter the European Union. This means that ANY plant originating in Turkey can be legally moved to Holland - provided that it is legal to remove it from where it grows.

ALL plants grown in gardens and fields originate from plants or seed collected in the wild.

The Hepatica nobilis which grow on my premises in five-figure numbers origin from plants which my grandfather introduced from another site eighty years ago. His action would today be illegal.

I once found white Viola canina in a field. I "stole" a small plant and it is still in cultivation. The field was turned from grazing to grain crop a year later and all orignal violas lost (Together with the legally protected Trollius europeus which I did not touch).

Another time I found an Anemone nemorosa form that was as large or larger than 'Leeds Variety' and obviously more frost hardy. Unfortunately I did not "steal" any. A few years later I looked for it and found only tarmac.

A famous collector who has introduced new plants into cultivation wrote a rather defamatory article condemning another for collecting - but the other person worked under govermnmental supervision and the publication had to apologize.

I own forest. I harvest and sell Pinus silvestris, Picea abies and Betula alba. I do this legally and I am even forced by law to do it (and to make sure new ones are coming up) I am forbidden to do the same with Hepatica nobilis although they replicate themselves to such an extent that they nearly are weeds in some places.

Subjects for reflection I think.

Göte 






 

[mark smyth]

Gote what you say is true

A few km east of Belfast was a fabulous site for bee orchids with 100s growing. A planning application was passed to build a large DIY store and supermarket on the site.

A main road running to the west was improved by removing hills and bends to make a faster road. There used to be 1000s of Primula vulgaris in the spring. They were destroyed but if I went to save them I could be jailed