London Riots

[PDJ]

The seed of the current troubles was sown many years ago when the government went soft on youths. 

They took the Discipline out of the schools and replaced it with counselling.  They stopped parents disciplining their children.  Then topped it off by taking the power from the Police to give a youth a clip up the ear.

The current political answer is we are giving the police all the resources needed.  Which translates to stop them but do it nicely.

What hope is there!

[Anthony Darby]

This morning on the news was a report where a young man was beaten up by a group of eleven year olds and while he was still dazed knocked down and robbed by another group of youths, and they are planning to raise the age of criminality!

[GoodGrief]

It's my right to a new colour telly and someone else's to provide it!!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/uknews/8693000/London-and-UK-riots-50-powerful-images.html?image=44


Forget debates about capital punishment, bring back corporal punishment...

E-petitions urge MPs to debate return of death penalty

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14400246


Last night, the BBC showed film of police beating looters on the back of the legs with batons.
I don't know if they were trying to air an item on police brutality, but my first thoughts were 'good, serves them right'.

Fortunately, (Royal) Tunbridge Wells has been pretty peaceful!!

Malcolm.

[mark smyth]

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[Ian Y]

I am too am deeply distressed by this bad behaviour - mob culture -but I am also annoyed on all the blame being leveled at the inequality that is sadly part of our society.

I am a socialist and am offended on behalf of all the genuinely poor hard working, law abiding people in our country the majority of whom would never behave in this way.
Those going through the courts show that they are not deprived just greedy jumping on the bandwaggon of free goods. Obviously criminals and gang culture are involved.

Sadly those of in our society who are genuinely in need of help will now see further cuts as all the costs of the riots have now been added to the debt we have to pay.

Meanwhile the banks, which created the crash which has contributed to the bad feeling, are making more money than ever by charging interest at inflated rates to countries that have had to borrow funds to keep functioning!

Do not be diverted by this common assumption that it is all the fault of the banks - yes they were irresponsible in the extreme and our government has had to put money in to shore them and our economy up but in time and if the government handle it well that money should come back.
The real problem is that our governments have for the last 15 or 20 years being spending well beyond their means - that is why the worst offenders are having to pay inflated interest rates. Even during the days of maximum economic growth and massive oil revenues coming into the tax system they still over spent. Many household have done the same and built up massive debts on credit cards which is one of the next big problems along with pensions we all have to face.
Spending beyond your means is fine as long as there is economic growth and you know that next year you will take in more money to pay the ever growing debt.Then came the banks crisis, caused by people spending beyond their means  (I accept many were manipulated into this situation by devious salesmen) which caused our economies to go into decline and reduced the income to the government.
Sadly you cannot borrow your way out of debt and that is what many governments seem to be doing.
I don't know when or how it will all end - it is too depressing to think but I do know the real value in this life is not money but friends like we have in this forum and our club.

Like Angie I am off to the garden - the rain has stopped and it will take my mind off of these problems. 

[GoodGrief]

An interesting read with a Clydeside perspective...

Rioters without a cause

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2011/08/10/rioters-without-a-cause/

[SusanS]

I am too am deeply distressed by this bad behaviour - mob culture -but I am also annoyed on all the blame being leveled at the inequality that is sadly part of our society.

I am a socialist and am offended on behalf of all the genuinely poor hard working, law abiding people in our country the majority of whom would never behave in this way.
Those going through the courts show that they are not deprived just greedy jumping on the bandwaggon of free goods. Obviously criminals and gang culture are involved.

Sadly those of in our society who are genuinely in need of help will now see further cuts as all the costs of the riots have now been added to the debt we have to pay.

nicely put Ian. 

It is too easy to tar everyone with the same brush and lay blame on one group within a society, when in reality the blame should be placed upon the individuals committing the crime.

[Martin Baxendale]

I think, despite the many complexities of this situation, that it's still worth bearing in mind that there is a long established correlation between the level of inequality within a society and the likelihood of this kind of behaviour occurring. Many studies across a wide range of countries have shown that the greater the inequalities within a society between the haves and the have-nots, the more of this kind of incident you're likely to see, and to me that looks like a problem that needs addressing quite apart from the particular detail and flavour of any one incident. The gap in the UK between the most well-off and the least well-off has been widening for decades now, under both left and right wing governments, and that is bound to increase resentments in a general way, whatever the particular circumstances of an individual event. In the long run the studies indicate that the only sure way to reduce the incidence of this kind of thing generally is to narrow the inequality gap.

[Martin Baxendale]

Interestingly, social studies  also indicate that in countries where the inequality gap is less wide, generally speaking everyone ends up feeling a bit happier with their lot, not just the poorest. Presumably because many of the more well-off feel less uncomfortable about how much more they have if they know that the gap between them and the poorest is not obscenely large. And possibly because they also have to worry less about this sort of situation arising. Or maybe many of them just feel it's fairer. Whatever the reasons, that's what the studies indicate.

[Paul T]

The gap in the UK between the most well-off and the least well-off has been widening for decades now, under both left and right wing governments, and that is bound to increase resentments in a general way, whatever the particular circumstances of an individual event. In the long run the studies indicate that the only sure way to reduce the incidence of this kind of thing generally is to narrow the inequality gap.

Martin,

Not just in the UK.  I think this is generally happening world-wide.  The US in particular I think at the moment is struggling with this.  High levels of unemployment, few job opportunities, economy under threat..... that all applies to have the western world at present I think.

[Gerry Webster]

I agree Martin.
I presume one of the social studies you  refer to is that by Richard Wilkinson & Kate Pickett - The Spirit Level: Why More Equal Societies Almost Always Do Better. This should be compulsory reading for all politicians.

[GoodGrief]

No wonder these kids think stealing trainers is OK. Everyone makes excuses for them

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/katharinebirbalsingh/100100161/no-wonder-these-kids-think-stealing-trainers-is-ok-everyone-makes-excuses-for-them/

[Gerry Webster]

I haven't noticed anyone making excuses for them. We need to get beyond Daily Telegraph-style expressions of outrage.

[Anthony Darby]

I seem to remember, in another age, similar grumblings leading to riots, supposedly caused by a lack of understanding by those that have of those that don't ("let them eat cake").

[alpines]

I haven't noticed anyone making excuses for them. We need to get beyond Daily Telegraph-style expressions of outrage.

Not making excuses for them? Let's start with the terminology. "Rioters". Rioters? These are arsonists, thieves, conspirators, thugs, murderers. Call it as it is.
The BBC did an interview with two girls who were involved in this disorder......and retained their anonymity. They should have named and shamed them.
Unemployed, poor. So what? There are thousands of unemployed and poor people all over the world. They don't all behave like this.
Inequality between poor and rich. Am I entitled to have a gripe and employ anarchy as my tool of choice because I drive a Ford and my neighbor drives a Bentley?

The UK has been making excuses for these cretins for as long as I can remember. No discipline at home, no discipline in the school systems. Spare the rod and spoil the child. 11 year olds on the streets during these events. Believe me, if I had an 11 year old, they wouldn't have been on the streets at that time of the night anyway, let alone when all this was going down.

I am sure many forumists will disagree with my viewpoint but don't tell me that we are not making excuses for them. And even worse, any young person who wears a hoodie, baggy pants or a pair of new trainers is going to be cast as "one of them" by the other cretins who tar everyone with the same brush.
This has nothing to do with the economy, unemployment or hard times. These are opportunistic troublemakers, devoid of morals....and the uneducated sheep who want to follow them on to the bandwagon.
Forget capital punishment....find another penal colony somewhere and pack them all off without their iPhones and see how they like that.