London Riots

[Lesley Cox]

Perhaps our poor and disenfranchised are more timid than those in some other countries because in many cases there is genuine reason for those people to kick up a hell of a fuss yet in the main, they do nothing, just take it. I read in yesterday's Otago Daily times of rioters who stormed a prominent food store in Dunedin's main street. I knew it wasn't recent because that store has been gone for many years. The article came from 1932, during the great depression and police were used to quell the rioters. The store owners were determined to stay secure, though there was a note that parcels would be made up and distributed from a welfare centre.

This morning on a TV programme called "Q and A" I heard our Prime Minister tell a blatant lie. He said the govt. had run large deficits in recent years (his 3 in office) in order to support the vulnerable within the community. This is so not true. The govt has run large deficits in order to support low taxes for the rich and super rich.

[Lesley Cox]

The gap between rich and poor, and the rate at which it widens, is responsible for just about all of modern society's ills I think. 50 and 60 years ago, NZ was a well off country, town populations were supported by country and everyone was aware that our economic health was dependant on our ability to grow and export high quality food, which we did and still do better than most others. Townies were proud to have family relatives on a farm and joyed in visiting those places. There was genuine equality among all NZers and the "class" society was unimaginable. Many in the world saw New Zealanders as boring and our country as a boring place to visit, preferably to be avoided. Perhaps that was true, but we lived simply and decently and cared for each other as we don't, to a large extent, today.

But gradually there has grown a culture of envy, as mentioned in a post above and town sees relatively rich country as the enemy rather than as friend. Many children have never seen a cow or a sheep and believe all food originates in the supermarket, or, God help us, a foodbank.

Now, we have a prison population second, per capita, only to that of the USA. Murders, which were a once a year and deeply shocking occurrance, are literally now a daily event. There is little respect for the elderly or ill or disabled from many of the young population and it is not uncommon to read of 10 and 12 year-olds beating up and leaving for dead, a man of 80, for the sake of the few dollars in his pocket.

I can't presume to name causes for all of this change but without any doubt, prison is NOT the right answer to the majority of small and petty crimes in the community. I think that by now, the amount of money which is needed to put into rehab programmes to be effective in making real change, would be too big to contemplate and the whole problem seems just too hard to tackle.

In a speech to be given today our PM will outline steps to get young people off benefits and into work. Great. I hope they work but as just about everywhere else, the cart is put before the horse. You can't get a job if there is no job to be done. This applies whether you're 17 or 65. Some young people here have been given benefits because, ostensibly, their home situation is so bad they can't live with parents. This benefit has been available from the age of 16. Now it is to be supervised by a parent or other adult and while that sounds a good idea, I can see a situation where a lad told he can't have his money to go out drinking or hooning around in a car, could lead to further violence and alienation. How can it all end? I feel depressed by the whole issue.

[Lesley Cox]

Going by Anthony's definition of the generations, I don't conform to type. I was born in 1943.

[GoodGrief]

Poor and disenfranchised? These riots have transcended race and class. Most thought they could do so with impunity.

What motivated the millionaire's daughter Laura Johnson to be part of it? Hardly poor!
What motivated the university graduate, Natasha Reid, to steal a £300 TV when she already owned one? Hardly uneducated!
What motivated the sportswomen and Olympic ambassdor, Chelsea Ives, who's met Lord Coe, the Mayor of London and been to the House of Commons? Hardly disenfranchised!

And as for the law student, Marouane Rouhi, didn't he know right from wrong?

My empathy is with fathers who've lost sons and that Malaysian student robbed whilst nursing a broken jaw.

Malcolm.

[Anthony Darby]

Individually, each of these people have intelligence and reasoning. Put them together and you have a mindless entity.

[Tim Ingram]

Who knows how things are connected? Here was I quietly weeding in the front garden when suddenly a cavalcade of motorcycles drove past - maybe a thousand or more! 'Supporting British Forces' - an honourable endeavour, but why all of a sudden? Actually they were all pretty good fun and there were some marvellous old bikes (and riders) amongst them. Even the traffic stuck on the M2 seemed quite happy. But it must be a sign of a level of insecurity that the riots have made more visible. Hopefully our society can collectively let of steam in such ways, as it always has.

[Martin Baxendale]

Those were the exceptions, Malcolm. The vast majority involved were quite obviously not drawn from the more privileged strata of society, although of course the exceptions will inevitably be held up as a way of "proving" that the whole thing had nothing to do with the ever-widening inequality gap.

I've never said that the widening inequality gap is the only factor involved, just that it is a factor  that helps to ensure this won't be the last disturbance of this kind that we see and that preventing future problems like this must involve looking at and tackling the inequality gap that breeds envy and resentment. Surely that's in everyone's best interests in the long run. Having said that, I think most people accept that there are also other factors involved, to do with attitudes, how kids are raised and educated, consumerism, policing, etc etc.

[Anthony Darby]

Unfortunately there are perceived ways in taxes hit the poor greater than the rich such as increasing VAT instead of raising the higher levels of income tax and closing the tax loopholes. I remember the pole tax being forced on Scotland. No wonder Mrs T is such a hated figure north of the border. I remember my brother off to university on his meagre grant. My dad was a college lecturer so my brother's student grant (remember them) was minimal. His then girlfriend's father was a millionaire farmer with an accountant that ensured she received a full grant.

[art600]

I ask again - why no rioting in Scotland or Wales?

[daveyp1970]

I ask again - why no rioting in Scotland or Wales?

Or Newcastle upon tyne and from working there and having family there,there are some very poor areas but from what i gather no riots there.

[art600]

Conversely, why Gloucester???

[Maggi Young]

I suppose it is naughty of me to suggest that Scots hooligans are adept enough at shoplifting not to need to exert themselves to riot and looting........? 

[art600]

 

[Martin Baxendale]

Arthur, all I can suggest is that there was an element of chance involved in where the riots broke out.

[mark smyth]

Rioting in Northern Ireland is almost, if not entirely, 'politically' motivated.

I dont think so but will ask some hoodie 'friends' Yes I know some people who might be classed undesirable. The cause havoc for any reason and are usually bored

Like London the areas our rioters come from are lower class, low wage earners/unemployed/dont want to work in back to back street houses. They are what used to be called spides which is short for spider men. They have the same dress sense as those in London - track suits but can somehow afford top of the range trainers, baseball caps, I wear one, tilted to  45^o above eye level, run in gangs. Any excuse for a riot.