Orostachys question

[Kristl Walek]

Hello All,
I am trying to sort something out---and wonder if anyone could help.
I have received from several sources plants named as Orostachys spinosa
minima, sometimes O. minuta. I do not believe the former is a valid name,
but I can't find anything to back up my thinking. Is there such a thing?

I believe in fact the small plants I refer to are all O. thyrsifolia---

My plants are prostate, forming succulent mats, bloom is summer, same long
phallic flower stalk as O. spinosa.

O. minuta (which does seem to exist as a valid species) apparently blooms
late in the season (late fall)---so I do not think this is my
plant---although I have not been able to find a close-up picture of the
foliage anywhere.

It's the first time I have had seed of this small gem---and I need to put a
proper name to it.

And another question- I am trying to build up my collection of hardy succulents, and wonder if anyone here might grow any hard-to-come-by species of Orostachys or Rosularia. I have quite a collection already, and seed of the rarer sorts are very difficult to obtain.

Thank you,
Kristl

[mark smyth]

In the 2007/2008 Plant Finder it only lists
O. furusei
O. furusei 'Grey Cloud'
O. spinosa

[Kristl Walek]

Mark,
Whether or not some of these are valid names, they are distinct plants in my garden.


aggregata
boehmeri
erubescens
erubescens (dark form)
fimbriatus
iwarenge
'Jade Mountain'
limuloides (Green Form)
malacophylla
spinosa
spinosa minuta (valid?)
thrysiflora

Kristl

[Carlo]

Kristl,

I share your deep interest in Orostachys and other hardy succulents. While at The New York Botanical Garden I accumulated a few species, but in my current position, have only O. furusei at the present time.

If my recollection serves me, there was a discussion of Orostachys names/taxonomy on Alpine-L some time ago.

[Carlo]

Sorry all...somehow that post got sent before I was finished...(imagine!)

In my file on the genus, I have three references for Orostachys

1)  An article by Ben J. M. Zonneveld in Cactus & Co. titled, "Orostachys and Meterostachys in cultivation" (vol. IV (1), 2000).

2) the treatment of Osostachys from The European Garden Flora

3) "Generic and Infrageneric Classification of the Old World Sedoideae (Crassulaceae)" by Hideaki Ohba, published at Journ. Fac. Sci. Univ. Tokyo III, Vol 12, 1978.

One I do not have but would like to get is Ohba's newer article, Notes towards a monograph of the genus Orostachys (Crassulaceae) (1), Journal of Japanese Botany 65(7): 193-203 (1990).

With respect to your initial question, Ohba includes the following in Subsect. Appendiculatae: O. spinosus (the type species), O. fimriatus, O. japonicus, and O. minutus.

[Kristl Walek]

So Carlo, the Obha classification would give varietal status to O. minutus?

Kristl

[Carlo]

No. Ohba (1978) lists it as a valid species in the subsection Appendiculatae. His key lists:

Subsection Orostachys
     
     Species: O. malacophyllus, aggregatus, iwarenge

Subsection Appendiculatae
 
     Species: O. spinosus, fimbriatus, japonicus, minutus

Subsection Schoenlandia

     Species: O shoenlandia, aliciae, stenostachyus

Three subsections, 10 species...

I'd love to have the 1990 article to see what he's done since.

[Carlo]

Ohba is also responsible for the Flora of China treatment of Orostachys

http://flora.huh.harvard.edu/china/mss/volume08/CRASSULACEAE.pdf

It says there are 13 species, 8 in China ( 1 endemic) are treated, and there is a birt of location and habitat information.

[Linda_Foulis]

<It's the first time I have had seed of this small gem>

Does that mean it will be in your catalog this year?   

[Kristl Walek]

Does that mean it will be in your catalog this year?
.............................

yesum, Ms. Linda.....under some name still to be determined.

and as well a few other interesting hardy succulents (Orostachys spinosum, Rosularia chrysantha, R. alpestris, R. serpentinica (another where I have to confirm the name). of course new sedums, semps, probably Rhodiolas....

Kristl

[shelagh]

Hi there Kristl,

I have a very small Orostachys which was given to me as O mongolica. Looking at the entries so far this name doesn't appear, perhaps someone out there may have some more information regarding it's authenticity.

[henkw]

Dear Kristl,

Could your Orostachys spinosa be Orostachys spinosum?

According to the AGS Encyclopaedia of alpines this should now named Sedum spinosum!

I have also the handbook of cultivated Sedums.

In this book Ronald L. Evans is only talking about Orostachys chanetii and Orostachys iwarenge.


Henk Westerhof

[kelaidis]

I realize this is ancient history, but perhaps you will check in on it Kristal!

We have mostly the same species of Orostachys, although I have O. chanettii, the best of the lot (spikes in June with a distinctly pink cast) and really beautiful rosettes. I have a picture on another computer...may post it if I remember.

Orostachys spinosa in cultivation is much grayer and larger than what I saw EVERYWHERE in the Altai of both Kazakhstan and Mongolia. The Altai spinosa is not only smaller, but rather greener. We have lots of it coming on.

I have three hybrid Orostachys from Ed Skroki that are wonderful: they need names! One looks like an exact intermediate between fimbriatus and malacophyllus.

Thank you for giving me a chance to show off my champion clump of O. iwarenge, which I love despite its biennial constitution...

[Great Moravian]

Kristl,
I published the following address somewhere in the forum
http://crassulaceae.botsad.ru/orostachys.htm
which is a perfect Orostachys reference.
Orostachys spinosa seems to be an extraordinarily
variable species, monocarpic or perennial. I suppose you
understand Russian.
στάχυς is masculine and therefore one would expect
-us instead of -a or -um. Nevertheless, the Vienna code requires the following.

62.1. A generic name retains the gender assigned by botanical tradition, irrespective of classical usage or the author's original usage. A generic name without a botanical tradition retains the gender assigned by its author (but see Art. 62.4).
Note 1. Botanical tradition usually maintains the classical gender of a Greek or Latin word, when this was well established.
*Ex. 1. In accordance with botanical tradition, Adonis L., Atriplex L., Diospyros L., Hemerocallis L., Orchis L.,Stachys L., and Strychnos L. must be treated as feminine while Lotus L. and Melilotus Mill. must be treated as masculine. Eucalyptus L'Hér., which lacks a botanical tradition, retains the feminine gender assigned by its author. Although their ending suggests masculine gender, Cedrus Trew and Fagus L., like most other classical tree names, were traditionally treated as feminine and thus retain that gender; similarly, Rhamnus L. is feminine, despite the fact that Linnaeus assigned it masculine gender. Phyteuma L. (n), Sicyos L. (m), and Erigeron L. (m) are other names for which botanical tradition has reestablished the classical gender despite another choice by Linnaeus.

So the compound Orostachys is feminine too.
Orostachys spinosa is the nomenclaturally correct spelling for Orostachys spinosus or Orostachys spinosum
Grammatically correct would be Orostachys spinosus.

[Kristl Walek]

I realize this is ancient history, but perhaps you will check in on it Kristal!

We have mostly the same species of Orostachys

Panayoti,
That may very well be because I believe I grew the bulk of my original collection from seed that you generously sent me over a decade or more ago...sadly most were left behind in Ontario when I moved, so I am now starting over with a much reduced palette of these interesting succulents. The Orostachys spinosa rarely "greys up" here in moist/wet/low heat Nova Scotia & the little "thrysiflora??" is not thriving at all, although it stays alive. I will try putting a clump of one of the larger species in a pot next year, following your idea. It may very well like it better than in the open garden.

On the other side of the coin, I am now able to happily grow more than the one yellow Delosperma which you collected in one of your early trips to the High Drakensburg (which I have continued to call aff. congestum as suggested by you). This  I have spread all over the world through the business since then, and know it is super hardy---and found growing in many gardens from Alaska to Russia.

Most Delospermas I have tried since my move, which I could never come close to attempting to grow in Ontario are now (madly) romping around the new rock gardens here---needing serious containment. They relish the moisture. Even the D. aff congestum I always grew in a moister spot in Ontario, as I always knew it liked those conditions better (as do most Rosularia).