Saffron crocus group

[Janis Ruksans]

Even more "antique" publication (by someone). Full text Croquin can find on internet (of course, if this one is sufficiently "scientific" monograph)
Janis

[Janis Ruksans]

Janis, you are most welcome to go dig a deep hole into your archives :-)

At first, I'm too busy now to search for this one, and, it is in Russian, so I'm afraid it will help you too little.
Janis

[bulborum]

Probably I made a mistake in my memory
Order of St. John of Jerusalem plus the text
is ringing a bell
must be that and not the Roman
but it was looooong ago when I saw that article

Sorry folks 

Roland

[Gerry Webster]

As I noted above, it is thought that Croydon, a town south of London, might have been a centre for the cultivation of saffron since the name is thought to derive from the Anglo-Saxon croh denu meaning 'crocus valley'. Anyone familiar with present day Croydon ("a concrete hell") will probably find this astonishing.
This information comes from the Wikipedia entry on Croydon but can be found elsewhere.

[Croquin]

Thanks everybody, we are learning a lot through this croconutstorming process.

Janis, do as you please according to your available time, Russian language is not a code I can't break.
I have received your book today ("Crocuses... genus") and I will start reading it - I guess I will get a lot of insights from it.

To summarize, Romans did not introduce C. nudiflorus in GB but knights did, much later in history - it seems that this order existed from the end of the 12th century until the beginning of the 14th century - therefore introduction would be around this period.

Ok, it seems from these reports that other crocuses can produce the spice.
From what you know about crocuses, do you think that they all can (but those with too small stigmas) ?
Do you think that they all contain the same chemical components in their stigmata, or that some species can be dangerous to use as spice ?

True, saffron from C. sativus is toxic at higher doses, and lethal at some treshold which is unclear to me (I read 5g somewhere, 20g somewhere else, most of the time 10g - for example here http://www.herbresearch.de/en/resources/doc_download/12-saffron-a-review-of-the-literature). Intoxication symptoms are mainly: vomiting, nausea, headache, dizziness, bleeding (uterus, intestines), and kidney failure (same ref.).
Saffron has some toxicity, for instance it has abortificant properties (Hosseini et al. 2009 Planta Med), and has specific cytotoxic effects on cancer cells (for example Crocetin Inhibits Invasiveness of MDA-MB-231 Breast Cancer Cells via Downregulation of Matrix Metalloproteinases. Dimitra G. Chryssanthi et al., Planta Med 2011; 77(2): 146-151).

[Maggi Young]

At a distance of some many hundreds of years, I think it is very hard to prove if the Romans did, or did not, introduce saffron and in what form. 
Since I find it hard most afternoons to remember what I did in the morning, such puzzles are no surprise to me!

I do know that Brian Mathew, (a friend and mentor to me in things bulbous and crocus related) has been employed in the past  by saffron dealers to ensure that the product they sell is "geniune" saffron from C. sativus.

[Croquin]

The only chance to know for sure is to find a reference in the Romans' writings, since they left some literature.
But where to look ?

However, we can speculate on more solid grounds thanks to logic:

1) if C. sativus was introduced in GB by Romans early in history, it probably died during the medieval small ice age, if it had not already disappeared before (it seems that this species never survives long in a place where it is left to itself without man's cultural assistance). Maybe was it the point to introduce C. nudiflorus: as a cold substitute crocus for saffron production when climate changed?
2) if C. sativus was already there from previous introduction, what could have been the point to introduce C. nudiflorus for saffron production, since it has smaller stigmas, therefore a reduced crop of spice? It could only be chosen because C. sativus was not growing or cropping well anymore and the spice was in use, otherwise C. sativus would have been preferred, like in Spain, France, etc.

Therefore, it seems that the key issue is the colder climate of GB (or period) - but all this is speculation.

By the way, do you have troubles growing C. sativus outdoors in GB nowadays ?
___________

Saffron, due to its price, has always been among the most sophisticated products.
You will find very surprising (and sometimes disgusting) things in the saffron you buy, barely of crocus origin.
Tons remain undetected each year.
Surely what Mr Mathew was employed for.

But fraud by adding stigmas from other crocuses, I don't believe: harvesting smaller stigmas crocuses would be more work demanding than harvesting C. sativus.
Fraud needs to be cheap and easy, its goal is to increase the weight and/or the volume of the spice.

[WimB]

At a distance of some many hundreds of years, I think it is very hard to prove if the Romans did, or did not, introduce saffron and in what form.  
Since I find it hard most afternoons to remember what I did in the morning, such puzzles are no surprise to me!

 

It's not impossible to prove though:

You could prove that the Romans used it from:

a) written records
b) remains from the spice found in cooking pots or from remains of clothes which were coloured with saffron.

with b) it wouldn't prove if the saffron was grown in England or if it was imported.

If one could find plant remains in a soil sample which was taken from a soil-layer, dated to the Roman period, you could prove the plant was grown there during that time....so, not impossible to prove but not very easy either....maybe someone has found remains of Crocus sativus during a dig already. For that you would have to look at the British excavation records of Roman sites and more specifically the archeobotanical and/or palynological records of those digs.

[WimB]

To summarize, Romans did not introduce C. nudiflorus in GB but knights did, much later in history - it seems that this order existed from the end of the 12th century until the beginning of the 14th century - therefore introduction would be around this period.

That makes more sense, that is during the temperature maximum of the middle-ages.

[Croquin]

Yes, I'm trying to make sense and see where the plausible possibilities are - keeping in mind that this is all speculations based on the inputs I got from the forum.

I imagine that archaeological remains must be very difficult to find, and as you said, depending on the type of object discovered, it wouldn't be automatically a proof of local production.
Is it possible that the dead plant can be preserved in the ground? I guess it should have to be 100% dry, or the plant tissues would decompose faster than empires rise and fall?
But you are correct, archaeological archives of the GB Roman sites could be a significant source together with literature.

I will keep that topic in a corner of my mind to be aware of it when I review docs. Thanks !

[WimB]

Yes, I'm trying to make sense and see where the plausible possibilities are - keeping in mind that this is all speculations based on the inputs I got from the forum.

I imagine that archaeological remains must be very difficult to find, and as you said, depending on the type of object discovered, it wouldn't be automatically a proof of local production.
Is it possible that the dead plant can be preserved in the ground? I guess it should have to be 100% dry, or the plant tissues would decompose faster than empires rise and fall?
But you are correct, archaeological archives of the GB Roman sites could be a significant source together with literature.

I will keep that topic in a corner of my mind to be aware of it when I review docs. Thanks !

There is a lot of plant material which is preserved in the ground. Of course in perfectly dry conditions or permanently wet conditions they preserve the best. I wrote my master-dissertation about agriculture and the change in diet during the late Bronze age (1325 - 800 B.C.). The raw data were the plant remains (seeds/pollen/vegetal remains) found on excavations. So I'm sure there are records in GB regarding the archaeobotany of Roman sites.

[Croquin]

by chance, if you were in the field, do you still have the possibility to access knowledge on this topic ?

[WimB]

by chance, if you were in the field, do you still have the possibility to access knowledge on this topic ?

Normally that data should be open to the pubic. I have no idea which agency is responsible for that information in GB, though.
If I find the time, I'll look it up.

[Croquin]

 

[Croquin]

I just want to share something.

I came to read an interesting historical testimony about saffron, written by Pliny the Elder in Naturalis Historia (book XXI chap17) about 2'000 years ago (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137%3Abook%3D21%3Achapter%3D17).

"The wild saffron is the best; indeed, in Italy it is of no use whatever to attempt to propagate it, the produce of a whole bed of saffron being boiled down to a single scruple; it is reproduced by offsets from the bulb. The cultivated saffron is larger, finer, and better looking than the other kinds, but has much less efficacy. This plant is everywhere degenerating, and is far from prolific at Cyrenæ even, a place where the flowers are always of the very finest quality."

"There is a peculiar kind, too, of cultivated saffron, which is in general extremely mild, being only of middling quality; the name given to it is "dialeucon." The saffron of Cyrenaica, again, is faulty in the opposite extreme; for it is darker than any other kind, and is apt to spoil very quickly. The best saffron everywhere is that which is of the most unctuous quality, and the filaments of which are the shortest"

The translation from Latin in French gives somehow a slightly different overall meaning, implying more obviously than in the English version that saffron (spice) was not only obtained from Crocus sativus in the antique world, but also from other wild crocuses:

« Le safran sauvage est le meilleur ; il ne convient nullement de le semer en Italie, chaque carré ne rapportant que le vingt-quatrième du coût. On le multiplie par caïeux. Le safran cultivé est plus large, plus grand et plus beau ; mais il a beaucoup moins de force ; il dégénère toujours, et il est d'un faible rapport même à Cyrène, où les autres fleurs sont toujours les plus estimées. »

« Il y a une espèce particulière de safran cultivé qui est extrêmement goûtée ; comme elle a du blanc au milieu, on l'appelle dialeucon. Le safran de la Cyrénaïque a le défaut opposé ; il est le plus foncé de tous ; il se gâte aussi très promptement. Partout le meilleur est celui qui est le plus épais et le plus court »