We hope you have enjoyed the SRGC Forum. You can make a Paypal donation to the SRGC by clicking the above button

Author Topic: some early hellebores  (Read 25180 times)

assybish

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
    • National Collection of Hellebores
Re: some early hellebores
« Reply #60 on: January 17, 2012, 01:38:29 PM »
I guess that's a difference between our locations - last year mine were ahead of "normal " but then a sudden long cold spell held them back in late December and early January by this time many were already in flower.
Like wine, Hellebores are addictive!

Garden Prince

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 97
Re: some early hellebores
« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2012, 09:46:03 AM »
Assybish, that are some beautifull Hellebores you show here. Are these outside or in a polytunnel/glasshouse?

Can you tell me how they perform outside in the garden?

I ask this because I hear mixed stories about how they perform under normal garden settings. Some say that the flowers of the double forms are too heavy and bend down, especially with wet weather (like we are having right now in the Netherlands). Others say that some colour forms (yellow, primrose and apricot) do not grow very well and are prone to leaf spot diseases.

In the Netherlands Hans Kramer (from the Hessenhof Nursery) started anew with his hellebores last year because he did not want to keep spraying them with fungicides over and over again. He now aims for healthy plants that don't need poison to stay healthy.

What are your experiences?


assybish

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
    • National Collection of Hellebores
Re: some early hellebores
« Reply #62 on: January 23, 2012, 09:28:05 AM »
Hi there are different facets to your question - I shall do my best to answer.
I have plants under cover in polytunnels - mainly my parent plants and they are under cover mainly for my benefit as I work on them pollinating, seed collecting etc. Also for visitors to enjoy as they are on raised benches.
I have plants in pots outside and in large display containers outside.
I have plants in the garden outside and plants "wild" in hedgerows outside in deep unmown grass.
The only plants that suffer from any problems are those under the polytunnels where I get botrytis when the pollen drops as it rots and can cause the bract scales of developing flower shoots to get botrytis despite excellent ventilation.
I believe the problem is that the polythene absorbs too much UV light which acts as a sterilising agent on out door plants where I don't get the problem.
I never spray out door plants unless they get aphids when I use a bee friendly insecticide to prevent aphids tranferring viruses. I never use fungicide.
I get no problems with any plants outside despite living in the second wettest area of England. Double and semi-doubles thrive and set seed on their own so I don't find a problem with doubles.
The only problem I find outside is with plants that I bred to meet the consumer demand for up wards facing flowers - as I predicted they can rot off if there is rainfall over a long period when the anthers are shedding pollen. This is exactly as I predicted and if I am asked for upwards facing flowers I say yes but give a warning that some flowers may be lost to rot if it is very wet - the plants are fine just flowers rotting.
This is as one would expect as they like galanthus etc have evolved nodding flowers to shed rain and snow as they flower during winter/early spring - I also believe it keeps the reproductive parts a few degrees warmer and so aids pollination. In their native habitats hellebores can flower when there is deep snow and night time temperatures well below freezing.

With regard to colours I found that some of the early yellows from the 80's and 90's did tend to show less resistance to leaf  spots in wet winters and the plants were generally less vigourous. I don't find any other consistent patterns with the plants I breed today. I regularly get people emailing me with photos of plants they've bought and saying how well they're flowering.
I think that there is a problem that many gardening books and magazines perpetuate the myth that hellebores are shade loving moisture loving plants so people put them in deep shade often facing north in waterlogged soils and they will sstruggle and rhizome rot becomes an issue.

The truth is that hellebores grow best in full sunshine during flowering and early leaf growth i.e. winter and early spring. In summer a little dappled shade from deciduous trees can do no harm but isn't essential. Hellebores are drought tolerant - many species in the wild go completely summer dormant their leaves shrivel and the rhizome stores food and water. I have rarely killed a plant by under watering but in the early days killed many by over watering!!! - I believed the so called gardening experts :'(
I hope this answers your concerns. I do not feel that breeders have generally caused plants to become less disease resisitant. Line breeding only causes problems if there are genes that are recessive and harmful to survival. One concern I have is that I believe some breeders use a high nitrate feeding regime in pot plants to get them flowering in 2 years - this causes plants that are overly tall too quickly grown with huge flowers and fleshy stems these in my experience can struggle in the first year or two in the garden and I have seen plants die because they were all flower with too little leaf as they had been "forced" by over feeding and possibly atrificial lighting? After a couple of years they are usually then ok. I don not follow this practice and all of my hybrids are 3-4 years old before sale and not heavily flowering they do best once transplanted outside with extra room for the root development.

This winter which has been the wettest I have ever seen a wild H. Orientalis has shown the worst damage from black spot than any of the x hybridus which surprised me.
Generally leaf black spot fungi are not important as they are only mildly disfiguring and tend to attack old leaves which are dying from August onwards anyway. Botrytis and rhizome rots are the biggest problems and if grown in full sun in well ventilated areas not some dank shady corner against a wall and if the ground is well drained or they are grown on a slope then they are nto a problem.
Follow this advice and grow the Queen of winter flowers and enjoy their long lasting beauty :)
Like wine, Hellebores are addictive!

Maggi Young

  • Forum Dogsbody
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 44766
  • Country: scotland
  • "There's often a clue"
    • International Rock Gardener e-magazine
Re: some early hellebores
« Reply #63 on: January 23, 2012, 11:20:30 AM »
Super full answer, Mike.... thank you!
Margaret Young in Aberdeen, North East Scotland Zone 7 -ish!

Editor: International Rock Gardener e-magazine

ChrisB

  • SRGC Subscription Secretary
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2370
  • Country: gb
Re: some early hellebores
« Reply #64 on: January 23, 2012, 07:22:53 PM »
That's very useful information Mike.  Thanks very much.  I'm gardening on very sandy free draining soil and the hellebores do seem to enjoy the shadier places here.  Someone next door is having a driveway dug out and even now the soil is very dry in the big heap that has resulted from the work.  But they still thrive despite the dry conditions.  I do give them a bit of a feed once per year because the soil is not rich in nutrients, but that's about it.  Trouble free plants imho.
Chris Boulby
Northumberland, England

Garden Prince

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 97
Re: some early hellebores
« Reply #65 on: January 23, 2012, 07:30:41 PM »
Super full answer, Mike.... thank you!

Same from me, many thanks!

assybish

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
    • National Collection of Hellebores
Re: some early hellebores
« Reply #66 on: January 26, 2012, 04:09:20 PM »
Chris
I am deeply envious I would kill for sand we are on solid blue brick clay with no topsoil it's just a bog hence growing so many plants in pots.
Like wine, Hellebores are addictive!

ChrisB

  • SRGC Subscription Secretary
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2370
  • Country: gb
Re: some early hellebores
« Reply #67 on: January 27, 2012, 10:40:30 PM »
I'm amazed at what will grow in my soil, and I'm not awfully good at nourishing it either, tend to just let things grow or not.  The ones that don't I just don't grow any more.  Can't get many of the ranunculus family to thrive here.  A few clematis maybe, but the ones that enjoy the rich clay just don't like it here.   But most bulbs like it too so I've taken to growing more of them in recent years.  The cyclamen love my soil....
Chris Boulby
Northumberland, England

PeterT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1369
  • Country: gb
Re: some early hellebores
« Reply #68 on: January 28, 2012, 06:22:27 PM »
This is in flower now. I bought it about ten years ago as Helleborus torquatus
living near Stranraer, Scotland. Gardening in the West of Scotland.

Joseph

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: some early hellebores
« Reply #69 on: January 28, 2012, 07:16:09 PM »
Mike, great photos of some stunning plants. Your method of pollen transfer is interesting. The black plastic(?) makes it easy to see, I suppose.

Peter, I'm afraid that is not H. torquatus:( Nice healthy hellebore, though. I'd call it a white Helleborus x hybridus.
Middle Tennessee, USA. Hot summers, erratic winters. Far from ideal, but somehow the plants grow.

Lesley Cox

  • way down south !
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16348
  • Country: nz
  • Gardening forever, house work.....whenever!
Re: some early hellebores
« Reply #70 on: January 29, 2012, 09:49:35 PM »
Does torquatus not have smallish, greenish/blackish flowers and dark to blackish leaves?
Lesley Cox - near Dunedin, lower east coast, South Island of New Zealand - Zone 9

PeterT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1369
  • Country: gb
Re: some early hellebores
« Reply #71 on: January 29, 2012, 10:06:07 PM »
Yes, attractive forms are usually fairly dark, and nearly always with a greenish  back. This has torquatus like leaves (smaller and daintier than purpurescens), and torquatus like branching. I picked it out from a batch of more typical torquatus ex wild seed in the wish that it was an albino, but it is more likely a cross though possiably 1st generation.
living near Stranraer, Scotland. Gardening in the West of Scotland.

ian mcenery

  • Maverick Midlander
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1590
  • Country: 00
  • Always room for another plant
Re: some early hellebores
« Reply #72 on: January 30, 2012, 12:05:16 AM »
Yes, attractive forms are usually fairly dark, and nearly always with a greenish  back. This has torquatus like leaves (smaller and daintier than purpurescens), and torquatus like branching. I picked it out from a batch of more typical torquatus ex wild seed in the wish that it was an albino, but it is more likely a cross though possiably 1st generation.

Peter I agree that your plant doesn't look as if it could be a torquatus. This species is similar to a lot of species hellebores in that they are not evergreen so the leaves are not present at flowering time. Your plant  looks as though it might have last years leaves. I have never seen a true torquatus that hadn't greenish flowers marked more or less heavily in black/purple though someone might correct me. The deep purple ones are the ones most sought after of course. The problem with species in general is that hellebores are very promiscuous and the only real way to get purity of species is from wild collected seed or division. Here is a couple of torquatus I showed last year. I must say that most of my torquatus plants are still below ground in bud and the longer they wait the better  I like it they do not like the weather we are having at present



Ian McEnery Sutton Coldfield  West Midlands 600ft above sea level

Joseph

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: some early hellebores
« Reply #73 on: January 30, 2012, 05:18:35 AM »
Ian, that second one is amazing. Here are a couple that are coming into bloom here now. Under the current classification, a lot of very variable populations are included. Lesley's description is pretty spot on. Not all young leaves are dark but many are.


Middle Tennessee, USA. Hot summers, erratic winters. Far from ideal, but somehow the plants grow.

assybish

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
    • National Collection of Hellebores
Re: some early hellebores
« Reply #74 on: January 30, 2012, 08:52:20 AM »
Hi Pete
I agree with Ian - the white does not look like torquatus, I have seen every shade of torquatus from black through to green with and without veining and spots but never a white one. I suspect it is an X hybridus possibly a white crossed with torquatus?
These are some of my early torquatus. The double is "dido" from Elizabeth Strangman.
Like wine, Hellebores are addictive!

 


Scottish Rock Garden Club is a Charity registered with Scottish Charity Regulator (OSCR): SC000942
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal