Clematis akoensis

[maggiepie]

Am wondering if anyone knows where seeds of this plant might be obtained.
I would really like seeds of C. akoensis Hayata.
It is native to Taiwan ( I think)

Any help will be hugely appreciated.

 

[Peppa]

Hi Helen,

I know someone in Japan who grows this clematis. He imported both plants and seeds from Taiwan this year. He was saying that because this clematis was native to Taiwan, it would be fine with hot summers, but he wasn't sure how cold hardy it would be.

I can ask him where he got his seeds if you are interested.

C. akoensis Hayata is  "屏東鐵線蓮" in Chinese; if you put this into google image search "屏東鐵線蓮" you can come up with lots of beautiful pictures (assuming your computer recognizes the characters).

[Maggi Young]

Hello Peppa, great  to have a post from you.  

I know you are in the PNW of America, but might you have any information about a nursery in Hokkaido:  Yuzawa Engei Nursery  ? 
The question about it is here : http://www.srgc.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=8219.0

[maggiepie]

Hi Helen,

I know someone in Japan who grows this clematis. He imported both plants and seeds from Taiwan this year. He was saying that because this clematis was native to Taiwan, it would be fine with hot summers, but he wasn't sure how cold hardy it would be.

I can ask him where he got his seeds if you are interested.

C. akoensis Hayata is  "屏東鐵線蓮" in Chinese; if you put this into google image search "屏東鐵線蓮" you can come up with lots of beautiful pictures (assuming your computer recognizes the characters).

Hello Peppa,

Nice to see you here.
Would be great if you could ask him where he got his seeds.
Have been looking at pics of the flowers for the past few hours.
I realize the plant would not be hardy for me but am willing to make special arrangements for special plants.

[Pascal B]

Clematis akoensis is one of the rarest Clematis in Taiwan and occurs in only a few nature reserves in Pingtung province in the south from which no plant material is allowed to be collected. Currently a breeding program is undertaken for ex situ propagation. Flowering plants mostly are in botanical gardens and seeds generally don't get outside the seed exchanges of these gardens. It therefore surprises me that seeds and plants were exported to Japan.

[Peppa]

Hi Maggie, thanks for the warm welcome! I've been lurking around this forum for a long time (even before I registered) and have been enjoying the information a lot! I especially like Ian's Bulb Log. Ron Ratko actually recommended this site to me when I asked him how to grow his Erythronium and Fritillaria seeds at our chapter meeting.

As to Yuzawa Engei, I have actually been looking at their catalog quite a bit and hopefully someday I can import some of their seeds or plants. I don't have personal experience with them as yet, but I have heard lots of good things about them from my Japanese plant friends. They have a great selection of Auricula from England, in addition to their Japanese species plants. That's all I know, but I wouldn't be surprised if the owner is a member of SRGC...

Helen, good to see you here, too! I have sent an email to my friend about the clematis, so when he gets back to me I will send a PM to you.

Currently a breeding program is undertaken for ex situ propagation.

Hi Pascal, do you know if they are using this clematis to breed something new? Or are they propagating to increase the number of plants? It would be interesting to see how they might use this clematis to breed new cultivars. Although C. akoensis Hayata is very rare even in Taiwan, I have seen someone who was showing off their C. akoensis Hayata which came from nursery stock on a Taiwanese forum. The person was happy to trade seeds or cuttings, so in Taiwan, I think it's possible that some nurseries are propagating this species and that it is available to the public.

[Lesley Cox]

The Google images do show a very lovely plant.

[Pascal B]

Hi Pascal, do you know if they are using this clematis to breed something new? Or are they propagating to increase the number of plants? It would be interesting to see how they might use this clematis to breed new cultivars. Although C. akoensis Hayata is very rare even in Taiwan, I have seen someone who was showing off their C. akoensis Hayata which came from nursery stock on a Taiwanese forum. The person was happy to trade seeds or cuttings, so in Taiwan, I think it's possible that some nurseries are propagating this species and that it is available to the public.

Actually, my use of words was wrong and "propagation" should have been "conservation". It is nothing personal but I want to adress a more general concern as I have great difficulty talking about hybridizing with rare species before there is a good stock of the pure species established into cultivation. Apart from the fact that I find it a beautiful species as it is and fail to see the need to improve on it, many gardeners sometimes lose the bigger picture when they see a nice plant and forget that these plants grow somewhere naturally or don't know much about their natural background.

The fact that nurseries in Taiwan grow it does not mean that the stock they have is always legitimate. There is a lot of talk on the forum about collecting from the wild and many think it is wrong but before a plant reaches a nursery from which they buy it, there could have been a whole series of events they know nothing about but that they would disprove of if they knew. And would that stop them from buying it or still buy it and keep that proces going? I would like to make people aware of that as Clematis akoensis is an endangered species. Taiwan is not a member of Cites nor recognizes the CBD so there is very little that would protect these plants and I hope people are aware that a nice picture and the desire to grow it could mean a great stress on the natural populations. So even if one can obtain material of it, please first try to make the SPECIES more available to growers instead of trying to put ones name behind a hybrid.

[Maggi Young]

You make your point well, Pascal.

It is a tough choice for gardeners; as you say, even when buying from a "respected" nursery, there is no guarantee that the preliminary stages to get the plant on sale were legitimate or morally correct.

What worries me is the widespread "them and us" attitude that many folks seem to take.  Many seem unable to realise that, from another perspective, it is they who are the ones 'out of kilter'.

Your point about establishing pure species in cultivation is valid, of course but from the gardeners' point of view, the possibility of introducing hybrid vigour to a plant that is scarce and perhaps tricky to grow, to enable it to be more available and more amenable to cultivation is understandably tempting.

It is always useful to be reminded about different aspects of any situation!

[Afloden]

I would share, but I recently sowed the few seeds of this species that I got. I'll be sure to pollinate and get seed from the eventual plants if and when they flower after making certain they are the right species.

 Aaron

[Pascal B]

Your point about establishing pure species in cultivation is valid, of course but from the gardeners' point of view, the possibility of introducing hybrid vigour to a plant that is scarce and perhaps tricky to grow, to enable it to be more available and more amenable to cultivation is understandably tempting.

Maggi, I heard that argument many times and to me it makes no sense at all. When you hybridize it it is no longer that plant, you can't add hybrid vigour to a scarce plant because it then is not the same scarce plant/species anymore. What often masquerades under it is the gardeners desire to "use the genes" for a desirable trait. If nature pays the price for that I can not be happy about that. If it is tricky or impossible to cultivate, leave it where it is: in nature and try to protect the habitat. Similar to the argument that "the genes survive" of a rare species in a hybrid, a hybrid is a hybrid, a species is a species. Once a hybrid you will never be able to extract the original species from it. It is not a matter of them or us, it is only us. We all have a responsibility towards nature, being a gardener and only seeing the endstation (the plant on the shelf at a nursery) does not mean we can shut our eyes for what happens before it arrives there. Being against collecting from the wild means being consistent and that I often miss with these topics, somehow morals are flexible....

To be on topic again. It could very well be some of the plants of Clematis akoensis ended up in the nursery trade in a responsible way. And you will never hear me say that I am always against collecting from the wild, the keyword is "responsible" and if done responsibly so the remaining population can recover easily and at least some of the material is propagated for ex situ conservation you won't hear me say I am strictly against it. I have seen akoensis in the wild, I have seen the conservation programs for it and I simply find it hard to believe the cultivated plants could already have been released for horticulture. If so I would be in favour of it being introduced on as wide a scale as possible because it is a lovely species, that we probably all agree about. And yes, it is low altitude so not really suited for most W European gardens.

[Maggi Young]

Pascal, I understand your position that to dilute genes is to lose them and do not dispute that... my point was that it was an understandable position from the average gardener.

As to "us and them" I was meaning that  it seems there are some folks for whom collection is  deemed permissable and for some it is not... a double standard that seems to take little account of the responsibility or otherwise of either participant. 

[fermi de Sousa]

I for one am very much in favour of retaining plants in their native habitat but I realise that "undisturbed" habitat is becoming rarer and rarer. I think that another Forumist (perhaps Kees) mentioned how on a return visit to Turkey found that an outcrop of hillside that supported a range of rare bulbs had disappeared presumeably to become roadbase for the ever-expanding highways. The rationalist in me says that we should not just conserve but strive to propagate and disseminate rare and endangered plants - preferably by seed, but I know of people who "rescue" plants before the bulldozers turn their habitat into yet another building site.
I really don't understand conservation principles which absolutely prohibit the propagation of some endangered plants! It's like the "Heritage Trust" type Institutions which would rather see a heritage building fall into disrepair and eventually fall completely than to see it restored or renovated to become habitable again. The saying "cutting off your nose to spite your face" comes to mind.
cheers
fermi

[maggiepie]

Fermi,

I agree with you 100% 

[Lesley Cox]

A programme currently on our TV and called, I think, "Miracle Babies" demonstrates clearly how some animals are so endangered in the wild from several causes, that only breeding in captive programmes is likely to save those species at all. Then they can be reintroduced to the wild and that is always, the programme emphasizes, the eventual aim of such programmes, not merely to show pandas and eye-eyes et al in captivity, but to safeguard the wild species.

Does this not also apply to heavily endangered plants? Anyone who has seen plants growing in their native habitats knows that many such, grow a lot better under cultivated conditions (I'm not talking here of the highest, most scree-dependant species as, e.g. Ranunculus acraeus, but plants which grow in regular soil for the most part. Most Clematis species would fall into that category.)

To my mind, responsible collection and subsequent propagation is more likely to save a plant by making it available to gardeners rather than having one or two irresponsible people collect illegally then distribute the booty to those who want it and don't care much about where it comes from.

We in New Zealand - and I know it has happened many times in the States - are strictly prohibited, as an example, from rescuing a few plants from an area which will shortly become a ski field and be bulldozed to bedrock with EVERY plant being killed in the process. As so many times where bureaucracy is involved, common sense is non existent.