Nomocharis aperta scales

[Maggi Young]

I don't necessarily think that nomocharis would be different from lily scales.... the premise is that the new bulb is effectively the same age as the old one...  or new sheep the same age as the old sheep, as in Dolly's case.... 

[David Pilling]

Isn't it likely that a scaled bulb will take any virus from its parent, and is 'aged' in that sense.

With lilies there are techniques for 'cleaning up' propagated material i.e. removing virus contamination from it.

How long vegetativley propagated stuff can go on for is interesting, will we run out of granny Smith apples one day. Some things one hears about seem to have gone on a long time, like the cuttings people take from 1000 year old trees.

[Graham Catlow]

How long vegetativley propagated stuff can go on for is interesting, will we run out of granny Smith apples one day. Some things one hears about seem to have gone on a long time, like the cuttings people take from 1000 year old trees.

David - you have made my next point for me.
Dolly died from a degenerative lung disease. The argument for her dieing from age related symptoms has not been proved nor disproved - to my knowledge.

[johnw]

I think the trick with Nomocharis is to dig them every couple of years - late autumn before the new roots emerge - and replant them in a fresh rich mix.   Once the collection grows the chance of a virus attack is almost certain.  We were just lucky.  Blame the aphis and slugs.  Dig, drench with boiling water, discard pots and dispose of all in the garbage no matter how traumatic.

johnw

[Rick R.]

I think the trick with Nomocharis is to dig them every couple of years - late autumn before the new roots emerge - and replant them in a fresh rich mix. 

johnw

So John, this is what you have been doing (approximately) since 1986/1993?
You certainly seem to have the knack!  Bravo!

[BryanEmery]

This aging stuff is interesting. The concern with cloning in animals was that telomeres or small bits of extra DNA that shorten when cells divide, eventually disappear and then the cell dies. So cell life can be based on telomere length. When you clone a sheep you have a lamb that already has the old DNA of its "parent" with short telomeres. For example if a sheep was going to live to 10 years and die of old age, if you cloned that sheep when it was 8 the resulting lamb could die at 2 of old age because its DNA was old when it was born.

With plants some are short lived some are long lived. So comparing cuttings taken from 1000 year old trees to cuttings/divisions of shorter lived species is not possible. The cutting from a 1000 year old tree may live a very very long time because the original mother tree could have kept going for a long time. Some short lived plants may be able to be kept going through vegetative propagation but may become weak over time. A neat example in plants is bamboo, for some species only one or two plants were collected and propagated over the years. These plants have been distributed around the world and after many years in cultivation (100+ in some cases) almost all of the plants of 1species will mature and flower, from all corners of the world. These plants have been vegetatively propagated for many years but it never 'rejuvenated ' them, they all kept aging and matured at the same time anyway.

[johnw]

I think the trick with Nomocharis is to dig them every couple of years - late autumn before the new roots emerge - and replant them in a fresh rich mix.  johnw

So John, this is what you have been doing (approximately) since 1986/1993?
You certainly seem to have the knack!  Bravo!

Rick

Unfortunately I've been a bit lazy the last two years and just getting at it now.

johnw

[JPB]

This aging stuff is interesting. The concern with cloning in animals was that telomeres or small bits of extra DNA that shorten when cells divide, eventually disappear and then the cell dies. So cell life can be based on telomere length. When you clone a sheep you have a lamb that already has the old DNA of its "parent" with short telomeres. For example if a sheep was going to live to 10 years and die of old age, if you cloned that sheep when it was 8 the resulting lamb could die at 2 of old age because its DNA was old when it was born.

With plants some are short lived some are long lived. So comparing cuttings taken from 1000 year old trees to cuttings/divisions of shorter lived species is not possible. The cutting from a 1000 year old tree may live a very very long time because the original mother tree could have kept going for a long time. Some short lived plants may be able to be kept going through vegetative propagation but may become weak over time. A neat example in plants is bamboo, for some species only one or two plants were collected and propagated over the years. These plants have been distributed around the world and after many years in cultivation (100+ in some cases) almost all of the plants of 1species will mature and flower, from all corners of the world. These plants have been vegetatively propagated for many years but it never 'rejuvenated ' them, they all kept aging and matured at the same time anyway.

Thanks Bryan, that is a clear explanation!

[BryanEmery]

Clear as mud as they say... .  Just re read it, forgot to mention bamboo dies after flowering, but most of you know this already...

[gote]

The question is, I think, why does the Lily/nomocharis die at all. My own experience is that scale propagated plants live as long as seed propagated do. However, many lilies dislike sitting in the same place for a very long time. They decline and this is not necessarily due to virus since they are rejuvenated by moving into a fresh place. It seems to me that he soil is sooner or later becoming adverse. This could have many reasons: Too many decaying lily roots causing excess fungal activity. too many daughter bulbs competing for space and nutrients, proliferation of nematodes, exhaustion of trace elements, proliferation of other pathogens like botrytis.
A plant that is weakened by any of these causes (or even by a non-lethal virus infection) might die prematurely by a cause that would not kill a vigorous plant.
Lilium lancifolium and bulbiferum have been around, vegetatively propagated, in this country for well over a hundred years perhaps well over two hundred in the case of bulbiferum. Never the less, the individual plant will usually start to decline after five - ten years in the same place.

A related question. At what time do you successfully transplant Nomocgais?

Cheers
Göte

[johnw]

The question is, I think, why does the Lily/nomocharis die at all. My own experience is that scale propagated plants live as long as seed propagated do. However, many lilies dislike sitting in the same place for a very long time. They decline and this is not necessarily due to virus since they are rejuvenated by moving into a fresh place. It seems to me that he soil is sooner or later becoming adverse. This could have many reasons: Too many decaying lily roots causing excess fungal activity. too many daughter bulbs competing for space and nutrients, proliferation of nematodes, exhaustion of trace elements, proliferation of other pathogens like botrytis.
A plant that is weakened by any of these causes (or even by a non-lethal virus infection) might die prematurely by a cause that would not kill a vigorous plant.
Lilium lancifolium and bulbiferum have been around, vegetatively propagated, in this country for well over a hundred years perhaps well over two hundred in the case of bulbiferum. Never the less, the individual plant will usually start to decline after five - ten years in the same place.

A related question. At what time do you successfully transplant Nomocgais?

Cheers
Göte

Göte       - It is coincidental you should also mention L. bulbiferum.  We were repotting some Nomocharis bulbs in the last few days and noted a strange rotted "stem" at the base of the Nomocharis bulbs, over time this rots and I wonder if that can lead to the demise of the bulbs left in situ for a long time - as well as rotted roots & nutrient depeltion as you mention.  L. bulbiferum we noted had the same sort of "stem" at the base. Can anyone explain this structure, seems I noticed it on another lily once before?

Only two offsets were found in all the Nomocharis pots.

We transplant in late autumn but by February bulbs in pots are making new roots so they have to be done no later than right about now.

johnw

[Graham Catlow]

Back to the original question - only things have moved on a little. Six days on and there are now leaves forming on three, roots and nothing else on others and roots just appearing on others. Three stages. What do I do now please

[Ian Y]

Graham
I think you now have to plant, them at least the ones with green growth, into a pot in a suitable growing medium- .  A humus rich well drained one similar to a seed compost - I would use a mix of sand, grit and leaf mould.
Then you will need to keep them growing on in the cool but protect them from the frost.
The emerging leaves do not need to be above ground as they will continue to grow up through the compost.
The trouble is that they are coming into growth way to early in the season.
Lesson to take from this is in future years take the scale cutting later like around now then they should come into growth around the normal time for Nomocharis.

[Graham Catlow]

Ian, thank you for this advice which I will follow tomorrow.
I received the bulbs in November and potted them immediately which is why I took the opportunity to take the scales then.
I'm not sure I will do it again but will also follow your advice and do it at this time of the year if I do.

[gote]

Isn't it likely that a scaled bulb will take any virus from its parent, and is 'aged' in that sense.
With lilies there are techniques for 'cleaning up' propagated material i.e. removing virus contamination from it.

David,
Yes, a scale propagated lily will most certainly inherit any virus infection.

Since it is possible to clean a lily by meristem culture I assume it would be possible with Nomocharis as well. It seems that the virus infects slower than the growing tip grows on. It is not 100% successful so it might be necessary to repeat the procedure.
The procedure is more expensive and tedious than rising new stock from seed so it only makes sense in the case of valuable clonally propagated cultivars.
"Cleaned" specimen of old cultivars have been shown to be more vigorous so it is possible that there is a pool of virus in some commercially available lily cultivars.

Premature death in some perennials seems to be connected with premature flowering. Typical in some of the blue Meconopsis. If this is a contributing factor it would only affect a mother plant not the scaled progeny. The mechanism seems to be that a Meconopsis that flowers too early has not had time to develop side shoots and the flowering shoot will not do that. (perhaps a similar mechanism that prevents Trilliums from early cumping) Strangely enough I have made observations that hint that it is possible to take cuttings from the flowering stem. However, since this will prevent any formation of seeds it is not a very good idea.
Cheers
Göte