New Galanthus species?

[Gerard Oud]

I found this one last year in a woodland where mainly elwesii and nivalis were flowering. It caught my eye because it was just a single plant that show a nice gracilis type of flower and i could not define it as a certain species. Now this year its showing it again and it surprises me even more, the leaves curl a bit like gracilis but the structure of the leaves look like koenenianus but a lot dark grener like plicatus. I cant wait till it flowers although i know how it looks like.

[Alan_b]

Surely, given where you found it, it is more likely to be a hybrid than a species?

[Gerard Oud]

Yes thats true Alan, but when you look at it it doesn't look at all like a elwesii or nivalis! And there are no gracilis or koenenianus to be seen here in holland in the wild.
here is a pic from the flower last year.

[Alan_b]

Yes, Gerard, that mark is distinctive and unusual.  Your photos give the impression there is just a single bulb (or two).  I hope that's not true and you have found a patch or a clump.  The woodland I have been observing for the last 8 years strikes me as quite a competitive/hostile environment where snowdrops survive en-masse but an interesting bulb I observe there one year may well not be there the next.

[Gerard Oud]

Just one single bulb and a just one bulbil nearby that i left for this year!
 I will have a look again there the next week.

[Alan_b]

I found an interesting snowdrop (that became "Green Light") in 2004 in a wood containing a large quantity of nivalis.  After seeking permission I removed a couple of bulbs leaving one or two behind.  I was able to observe the remaining bulbs in that location up until 2008 but I have not seen them since.  I don't know if that is because they have gone or because I cannot see them due to the large numbers of other snowdrops that surround them (I cannot get very close without trampling other snowdrops and I am loath to do this). 

The same applies to other snowdrops I have collected (with permission) from the "wild".  I have generally tried not to remove the entire stock but have still often been unable to find the snowdrop of interest again in subsequent years.  So if you can get permission I recommend that you remove the snowdrop you have found and take it into your own care.  I think it is more likely to survive in the long term if you do this.

     

[Gerard Oud]

Where i found it you cant ask permission, its states property. If i do ask permission i already know the answer! Like in a scene from Monty Python i shouted loud several times "I am taking this plant home" and nobody said "no you cant"

I took the biggest plant and its doing well over here now!

[daveyp1970]

Where i found it you cant ask permission, its states property. If i do ask permission i already know the answer!

I took the biggest plant and its doing well over here now!

Gerard what are the chances somebody having  gracilis or koenenianus in a near by garden and its pollen has been carried out put on one of the local galanthus to produce this plant?

[Alan_b]

Against which you have to weigh-up the chances that a hitherto unknown species of galanthus was imported many years ago with some elwesii bulbs (presumably) and has remained there ever since.

[Gerard Oud]

Where i found it you cant ask permission, its states property. If i do ask permission i already know the answer!

I took the biggest plant and its doing well over here now!

Gerard what are the chances somebody having  gracilis or koenenianus in a near by garden and its pollen has been carried out put on one of the local galanthus to produce this plant?

This chance is almost zero,  gracilis and  koenenianus  in a nearby garden is like searching for hen's teeth Davey I am almost 100 % sure there are no such species within 30 to 40 km around that spot.

[daveyp1970]

Where i found it you cant ask permission, its states property. If i do ask permission i already know the answer!

I took the biggest plant and its doing well over here now!

Gerard what are the chances somebody having  gracilis or koenenianus in a near by garden and its pollen has been carried out put on one of the local galanthus to produce this plant?

This chance is almost zero,  gracilis and  koenenianus  in a nearby garden is like searching for hen's teeth Davey I am almost 100 % sure there are no such species within 30 to 40 km around that spot.

Just a thought Gerard

[Gerard Oud]

Against which you have to weigh-up the chances that a hitherto unknown species of galanthus was imported many years ago with some elwesii bulbs (presumably) and has remained there ever since.

I thought about that too but these elwesii's are growing there for at least 50 years and this clump of "new" hybrid/notospec/species stayed quit small all those years. Just one single plant and a single bulbil nearby.Maybe the clump if you can speak of a clump has been bigger and got reduced a while ago i dont know.
I have sent a pm to John Grimshaw and Matt Bischop, maybe they have more information, or its just something new!

[Gerard Oud]

Where i found it you cant ask permission, its states property. If i do ask permission i already know the answer!

I took the biggest plant and its doing well over here now!

Gerard what are the chances somebody having  gracilis or koenenianus in a near by garden and its pollen has been carried out put on one of the local galanthus to produce this plant?

This chance is almost zero,  gracilis and  koenenianus  in a nearby garden is like searching for hen's teeth Davey I am almost 100 % sure there are no such species within 30 to 40 km around that spot.

Just a thought Gerard

It keeps my mind busy too Davey

[Alan_b]

I thought about that too but these elwesii's are growing there for at least 50 years and this clump of "new" hybrid/notospec/species stayed quit small all those years. Just one single plant and a single bulbil nearby.Maybe the clump if you can speak of a clump has been bigger and got reduced a while ago i dont know.

If it really is a new species (rather than a hybrid) then the explanation you give is one credible explanation.  But the other possibility is that there is a much larger quantity of the same plant elsewhere in the wood but you have not found that yet.  What you have found is an odd bulb from the main colony that was carried off by a squirrel or some such. 

[Gerard Oud]

I have checked the whole area, that means the whole area and these were the only ones!
I think that its going to be a notospecies what means that its a hybrid between elwesii and nivalis. But even then its looks a lot like a gracilis, twisted leaves( no virus!) and the typical flower.I do not see any relation between elwesii and nivalis, maybe nivalis a bit. When the plant is fullgrown i place a photo from the leaves bottom to see the structure.
We are still investigating it and i will let you know the results on this forum