Snowdrops in February 2012

[Carolyn Walker]

A few clarifications...

Alan--the second photo is a slightly different angle because Mark referred to a shadow so I thought it might help.

KentGardener--all the photos are from March 2011, the first year I had the plants.  I received them in bloom in March, and they thrived over the intervening time.  Both are blooming now and one has produced a second plant with a flower.  It is overcast today and the flowers aren't open, but I will be investigating them carefully as soon as the sun shines.

Martin--I had compared the two photos before you posted the links again  , and I clearly see the difference.  I went to a lecture (on Tasmanian gardens) today and stopped by Charles Cresson's house to look at the original clump.  The flowers aren't open, but we pried several apart (I hate doing that) and they all looked like the photos that Jennie posted.  I want to wait until the flowers actually open to see if there is variation in the individual plants.  However, if there isn't then it seems unlikely that I would get the only two nonconformists.  In a PM, Mark suggested that mine might be seedlings, but I think that is unlikely because Charles is very careful not to let his special snowdrops seed into themselves.  He collects the seeds.  Since everyone seems interested (I feel like I stirred a hive), I will pursue this further.  In the meantime, if Jennie's photo is what true 'Wendy's Gold' looks like then I would rather have my very yellow 'Bill Clark' no matter how you spell it   (now you have got me using those ridiculous little faces).

Thanks for all your help and advice, Carolyn

[mark smyth]

I feel like I stirred a hive

That's Galanthomania for you

[Martin Baxendale]

Sorry Carolyn, I didn't mean to be pushy posting the links again together and suggesting you compare them, just trying to make it easier to do a comparison, especially of the ovary shape. Mark made it even easier by posting the actual pics together so I needn't have bothered. 

[Alan_b]

they all looked like the photos that Jennie posted.

Curiouser and curiouser

In a PM, Mark suggested that mine might be seedlings

Martin Baxendale is the expert on that side of things.  I don't think Wendy's Gold has ever been known to self-pollinate and produce another yellow snowdrop so a proven seedling would be very interesting

I would rather have my very yellow 'Bill Clark'

Of course, it's not 'Bill Clark'; it just looks more like Bill Clark than Wendy's Gold does.  If the 'eyes' are real then it is new and unique and very nice indeed.

[kentish_lass]

 In the meantime, if Jennie's photo is what true 'Wendy's Gold' looks like then I would rather have my very yellow 'Bill Clark' no matter how you spell it.

I must admit Carolyn that mine is extremely greeny yellow.  When it clumps up more I will move some to another part of the garden in slightly different soil and more sun to see if it changes the colour.  Out of interest is your 'Bill Clark' in sun or shade?  My soil is quite alkaline and amended soil over clay so not sure if that is making a difference.  Makes me wonder if it is worth getting another Wendy's Gold from another source to see if it will be more yellow.....or is that just an excuse to buy more snowdrops  

Will be interested to see if you get to the bottom of the puzzle.

Jennie

[mark smyth]

Carolyn look for yellow tips on your yellow snowdrops

[Martin Baxendale]

Carolyn, I did think that the ovary on your yellow was even more elongated than in 'Bill Clark', and it is a very bright clean yellow. When saying it looked like 'Bill Clark' I was thinking that the entire stock that yours came from might turn out to be 'Bill Clark' supplied wrongly named. But if the rest are all 'Wendy's Gold' then you may well have a new seedling, possibly from a pod that was overlooked.

Snowdrops tend not to self-pollinate readily, generally needing to cross with a different clone to set seed reliably, but it can happen, and  if Wendy's Gold did manage to self-pollinate and set a seed or two then the seedlings ought to come yellow as it's effectively a yellow crossing with a yellow so the recessive yellow gene expresses itself in the seedlings. What normally happens is that Wendy crosses with a nearby green-marked snowdrop (unless deliberately pollinated with another yellow) and the seedlings all come green(ish). I have a theory that sometimes a snowdrop will be partially pollinated by another nearby flower and also gets some of its own pollen in its stigma, and the foreign pollen overcomes the self-pollination inhibitors, allowing the flower's own pollen to fertilise ovules. But it's just a theory.

In any case, I think it's looking increasingly likely to be a seedling. Unless the original stock was  mixed and by pure chance you got the only 'Bill Clark' bulbs. I think you need to check all the other flowers to be sure there isn't any variation.

[Carolyn Walker]

Carolyn, I did think that the ovary on your yellow was even more elongated than in 'Bill Clark', and it is a very bright clean yellow. When saying it looked like 'Bill Clark' I was thinking that the entire stock that yours came from might turn out to be 'Bill Clark' supplied wrongly named. But if the rest are all 'Wendy's Gold' then you may well have a new seedling, possibly from a pod that was overlooked.

Snowdrops tend not to self-pollinate readily, generally needing to cross with a different clone to set seed reliably, but it can happen, and  if Wendy's Gold did manage to self-pollinate and set a seed or two then the seedlings ought to come yellow as it's effectively a yellow crossing with a yellow so the recessive yellow gene expresses itself in the seedlings. What normally happens is that Wendy crosses with a nearby green-marked snowdrop (unless deliberately pollinated with another yellow) and the seedlings all come green(ish). I have a theory that sometimes a snowdrop will be partially pollinated by another nearby flower and also gets some of its own pollen in its stigma, and the foreign pollen overcomes the self-pollination inhibitors, allowing the flower's own pollen to fertilise ovules. But it's just a theory.

In any case, I think it's looking increasingly likely to be a seedling. Unless the original stock was  mixed and by pure chance you got the only 'Bill Clark' bulbs. I think you need to check all the other flowers to be sure there isn't any variation.

Martin

Thanks, that is all very helpful information.  I intend to check all the flowers next Thursday and not just a sample like we did today.  It was quite overcast and cold and the buds were tightly shut so we could have misjudged the size of the mark when peeling back the outer segments.  Although there are other snowdrops in the area of 'Wendy's Gold', the closest cultivar, which is right next to it, is.... 'Lady Elphinstone'.

Carolyn

[johnw]

I have a theory that sometimes a snowdrop will be partially pollinated by another nearby flower and also gets some of its own pollen in its stigma, and the foreign pollen overcomes the self-pollination inhibitors, allowing the flower's own pollen to fertilise ovules. But it's just a theory.

Martin -

Interesting concept.

Does anyone know exactly how many tubes are in the stigmatic column of a Galanthus? i.e. How many fathers can a single pod contain?  In Rhododendron of course you can have mutliple fathers for the seed produced by one seedpod (ovary). I know this has nothing to do with your theory above but it sure throws some expectations out the window when we do a deliberate cross and do not emasculate & protect the stigma afterwards. 

Sad there has een so little research done on fertility in Galanthus.  Do we even have solidly verified chromosome counts for the species and inter-specific hybrids?

johnw

[johnw]

(I feel like I stirred a hive)

With so many folks getting stung on ebay these days I think you really lucked out with this one. Much prefer it to Wendy's Gold  - much more intense yellow and somehow more dramatic in appearance. Not often we hear of someone getting the wrong snowdrop and being elated.

johnw

[Martin Baxendale]

I have a theory that sometimes a snowdrop will be partially pollinated by another nearby flower and also gets some of its own pollen in its stigma, and the foreign pollen overcomes the self-pollination inhibitors, allowing the flower's own pollen to fertilise ovules. But it's just a theory.

Martin -

Interesting concept.

Does anyone know exactly how many tubes are in the stigmatic column of a Galanthus? i.e. How many fathers can a single pod contain?  In Rhododendron of course you can have mutliple fathers for the seed produced by one seedpod (ovary). I know this has nothing to do with your theory above but it sure throws some expectations out the window when we do a deliberate cross and do not emasculate & protect the stigma afterwards. 

Sad there has een so little research done on fertility in Galanthus.  Do we even have solidly verified chromosome counts for the species and inter-specific hybrids?

johnw

John,

All galanthus have the same basic chromosome count - 2n = 24, most being diploids but with some known triploids, tetraploids and hexaploids. So theoretically all species can inter-cross, although some species have widely differing DNA mass which seems to make them less likely to cross while others with similar DNA mass seem to cross more readily. Inter-specific hybrids of course all have 2n=24 and their DNA mass varies according to parentage, which can help when guessing at what the parents of a hybrid might be.

[Martin Baxendale]

Sorry, John, missed your other question about stigmatic tubes and ovules. I don't know about the tubes, but galanthus tend only to have a few ovules per ovary compared to say narcissus - often only a handful of seeds per capsule, although that can vary upwards to perhaps twenty or so, but usually much less. The low levels of ovules per ovary don't help when you're trying to breed with low-fertility triploids and hybrids as that of course reduces the chances of success from any particular pollination even further.

[Mavers]

Does anyone think the extremely cold weather we are are now enduring could damage our snowdrops considering how far advanced they are after the mildest January on record?

[Martin Baxendale]

Does anyone think the extremely cold weather we are are now enduring could damage our snowdrops considering how far advanced they are after the mildest January on record?

They should be fine in the main. Snowdrops are pretty tough, unless frozen solid in unprotected wet pots for a long time as happened to some people last winter. In the ground they should be okay. The cold hasn't been severe enough, at least here in the UK, or prolonged enough to go deep into the ground.

[scatigaz]

I have a snowdrop coming today from ebay but the ground is rock hard. What would be the best thing to do? Thanks in advance for any advice.