Fritillaria 2012

[Lesley Cox]

I don't think I'll enter that particular discussion Gerry, and as for syphilis, I don't feel the need to know much about it anyway - just been listening to a radio thing about Schubert - but perhaps I'm mixing, in my mind at least, "facts" with "truth." No doubt some could argue that truth is a subjective thing and so could change, according to perception. I incline to the "truth is truth, not matter how unpalatable or difficult to prove while a lie is still a lie no matter how many times it is repeated" school. Sorry, the quotation is not correct but you know what I mean.

[ronm]

F. tubiformis moggridgei

To continue the ' paler version of'' nature of this thread at the moment.

[Janis Ruksans]

Further to the discussion over Fritillaria latifolia I have never been been able to see a clear distinction between it and Fritillaria tubiformis, and its its sub species moggridgei.

Below are two pictures the first a yellow form of Fritillaria tubiformis and below sub species moggridgei.

Look at these and then look at F. latifolia could they  be geographic variations of a single wide spread species?

My problem may be that I have raised them all from seed and these are from our own garden seed so they may cross once they are in cultivation - not the same as studying them in the wild.

One thing for sure is I love all of them.

Ian,  suppose that your plants most likely are hybrids. True tubiformis and var. moggridgei (tepala flava sparse rubro-brunneo tesallata) you can see on attached pictures. See Turrill & Sealy Hooker's Icones Plantarum. Studies in the Genus Fritillaria, 1980. Fritillaria latifolia there is regarded as separate species, but collina included under latifolia. Janis

[ronm]

Thank you Janis for the pictures and the reference. Very informative.

[ronm]

F. affinis

Of my pale forms of F. affinis, I like this one the best. It has a purity and a butteriness to the colour, whereas I think my others tend to greenish and sometimes look quite anaemic. I have selfed this for the last two years and have a very good amount of seedlings.
I haven't been able to establish the % occurrence of this pale flower in the wild ( can anyone point me in the right direction please? ). I have ordered some bulbs for later this year to supplement my own and am hoping to establish a good natural patch in some scrubby part of the garden. I'll be planting at around 10% pale form.

[Gerry Webster]

I have found some work on the molecular phylogenetics of  fritillaries. This study includes FF. tubiformis & aurea - which are surprisingly distant from each other - but not, unfortunately, FF. collina & latifolia.
(the PDF is too large to attach):

www.ninaronsted.dk/page1/files/page1_9.pdf

[ronm]

Thank you Gerry.

Must have taken some time digging this out. Much appreciated.

[ronm]

Interesting that they list F. maximowiczii in the Subgenus Liliorhiza. I hadn't picked that up before. 

[Rafa]

Here is a species from Pakistan,with certain resemblances to Fritillaria gibbosa, but I think it is other species. Any idea?

[Gerry Webster]

I have no idea Rafa but it might be worthwhile looking at the online Flora of Pakistan:

http://www.tropicos.org/Project/Pakistan

[Janis Ruksans]

Some interesting Fritillarias blooming now
Fritillaria argolica
F-2 generation seedling from cross between F. aurea and F. fleischeriana. In F-2 each seedling was different, but this one I selected as best
Three different forms of Fritillaria crassifolia from Iran (WHIR) and Turkey,
Fritillaria poluninii from Iran
Fritillaria latifolia nobilis (Turkey)
Janis

[ronm]

Loving your Frits Janis.
A number of us are wondering what differentiates F.latifolia from F.latifolia nobilis please? You have shown us both before but we don't know why they are different. Thanks.

[Janis Ruksans]

Loving your Frits Janis.
A number of us are wondering what differentiates F.latifolia from F.latifolia nobilis please? You have shown us both before but we don't know why they are different. Thanks.

F. latifolia nobilis has short stem and at start flower lies on soil. In F. latifolia latifolia flower opens at some height from soil - in nature at least 20-25 cm, but in cultivation stem at blooming can be shorter. I think that nobilis flowers are more shiny, type subsp. something dim. In nature no problems to separate.
Janis

[ronm]

Thanks for the explanation Janis. And are they growing seperately in the wild?
Also I was wondering, on a different matter, if you think there are different environmental pressures on the yellow and purple forms of certain species? I note your observations that often the purple forms are in the open fields and the yellow plants ' hide ' under spiny shrubs or against walls.  Could this be due to specific grazing pressure against the yellow ssp.? Is it a similar model to that which was classically seen in the Biston betularia moth of industrial England? Do the chemicals which support the purple colouration also support a  'bad ' taste?

[Gerry Webster]

Apropos F. latifolia, Christabel Beck (Fritillaries, Faber & Faber, 1953) remarks that before World War 2 many named forms were advertised in bulb catalogues. I wonder if any of them survive?