Fritillaria 2012

[ashley]

Davey, what we will have to do probably is site the Wallis material as a botanical reference for EPA and with that, the new name should be added to the Biosecurity Index.

Just take care in the meantime Lesley
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10840408

[Lesley Cox]

Thanks for that most interesting link Ashley. Graeme Platt and Jack Hobbs are two of the country's most respected plantsmen but nothing surprises me so far as the plant police are concerned.

I don't remember where I had my original F. bithynica, presumed for some years! . It could have been an imported bulb in 1993 or it could have been from seed but who knows from what source? I didn't belong to FGAGS then. I've never had bulbs or seed from the Wallis nursery but did, occasionally from the Archibalds so that's a possibility. I post some pictures below to show what I have and the variation among them. All these are seedlings from whatever original material I had. Carica flowers later for me (now, this year whereas the (not) bithynica finished nearly a month ago.

[Lesley Cox]

I included the last, in a trough because it reminds me of the "cut-and-come-again" lettuces and some other vegetables. I don't know how it came to be in the trough - I didn't put it there! - and every year as it dies down I dig it and put it elsewhere, usually selling it in the finish, yet every following spring, there it is, a few more flowers in exactly the same place. It seems incredibly vigorous and persistent. I'll get it though when we move as I'll have to empty most troughs to move them.

From seed sown in summer, I find they flower in 2 and 3/4 years from seed. Most set some seed and I've never had a single winged capsule.

[ronm]

Such beautifully grown Frits Lesley! When we see pictures of these plants growing in the wild they always seem so lush and healthy. Yours replicate this vision. So often these plants in cultivation look 'starved' of something, and seem somehow ( although they may get a 'First' ) lacking in life. Yours certainly don't. 

They appear to be quite uniform in appearance, apart from your last picture and possible picture number 2? They don't look at all like the 'typical' ( whatever that means??) form of F.bithynica that is commonly grown here in UK.

I wonder what they might be?
One thing for sure, if they don't have a winged capsule, they aren't F.bithynica.

[Hillview croconut]

Hi Lesley, pardon me for jumping in on this conversation but I just couldn't resist raising the issue of individual species assessment a matter that I (and hopefully Tim Orpin) will be raising with DAFF here in Australia.

Can’t the Fritillaria Group end this farce? Surely your Group can ask the EPA to provide credible evidence that meaningful biosecurity is being achieved through the process of ongoing individual species assessment for a genus that has a 100% low risk record (that’s a no risk record)?
On the available evidence i.e. observation of the behaviour of the genus within NZ and the rest of the world it is clear that the genus Fritillaria is a very low risk pathway for disease and presents no environmental threat. It is therefore meaningless to apply individual species assessments where a blanket approval of the genus would suffice.
This would enable the EPA to do away with unnecessary regulation which unfairly impedes importers, wastes valuable agency resources, and directs biosecurity effort away from areas of greater concern.
Why don’t you guys try this on? It would appear your biosecurity isn’t used to consultation and is more interested in gold-plating than balanced policy. Challenge them on the science. The standard level of confidence in the field of experiment and observation is 95% and your group can easily present evidence that supports a 100% level. It’s an open and shut case.

Cheers, Marcus

[David Stephens]

Can’t the Fritillaria Group end this farce?
Cheers, Marcus

I think I agree with Marcus.
The concept of specification is subjective anyway. If taxonomists disagree as to the nomenclature of a particular taxon, where does that leave individual species assessment?

[Hillview croconut]

David makes a good point.
 This is from an email from Laurence Hil (I am sure he won't mind it being posted here),
"From my work on Japanese Fritillaria and others the idea of morphological species is starting to fall apart. Each population has the potential to be a separate biological species."

This creates all sorts of confusions and problems for importers, like Lesley and myself, who have to then go off and gather evidence, present a case, etc ...., while the agencies sit on their hands and do nothing.

The telling point to make here however is that some genera, Fritillaria included, have no or very little risk impact, i.e. no individual species within its ranks has presented a disease or environmental risk, therefore ongoing individual assessments are meaningless. On the other hand some genera, Allium for example, contain individual species that do pose an environmental risk (or in other genera a disease pathway risk) and therefore individual species assessments are warranted.
 
Cheers, Marcus
Cheers, Marcus

[Lesley Cox]

Oh crumbs! You are right of course and we as a group should be doing something positive about it. In fact, that very aim was part of the original purpose of the Group. Part of one problem is that none of us with the exception of Prof. John Lovis, is a botanist/taxonomist and almost certainly we will be told we aren't qualified to make such claims/requests but I agree it should be tackled and I'll pass along your post in toto if I may and see what comes of it.

We may have moved even further from doing anything about it recently in that at the last AGM (we haven't had one this year so at best it's a biennial meeting) it was decided to change the name of the group to Small Bulb Group as most members felt they had all the frits they could easily get and many don't want to bother with seed.

The people most likely to take the issue up are the specialist Groups and would certainly be supported in this by me and perhaps a couple of others and hopefully we would be helped by Prof Lovis but he is 82 this year and I don't know the state of his health. So OK, I'll try and raise a fuss and hopefully we can get something done, though honestly, ERMA and now EPA have never listened to arguments from amateurs.

Logically the same argument could apply to many bulb genera; Crocus, Erythronium, Galanthus, Narcissus et al and at one time all Narcissus were permitted - until the taxonomists started changing names, splitting species and generally publishing many more names. Since then, it's back to square one and we have to prove that the split off bit is actually what we have been growing for years as - whatever.

Considering the ways biosecurity threats enter the country, seeds or small bulb imports are the least of the country's worries. Containers of machinery, fruit from a dozen different places, people returning with not perfectly cleaned footwear and many more ways are real threats, as recent diseases of kiwifruit vines have shown and pests to attack bees etc. There is also the occasional provable case of sabotage of our biosecurity and the amount of resource badly directed is huge. We are told that every item coming to the borders is checked but we know for sure that probably one in ten is a closer number.

[Hillview croconut]

Hi,

You don't need to be a scientist. All you need is logic and the internet. Turn the tables - ask EPA to provide the evidence to justify ongoing individual species assessments where there appears from your literature survey of relevant material no evidence can be found.

Also I would start of slow - don't introduce other genera into the situation yet. Just use Fritillaria as a test case. That way you can do the searching, present the evidence, and if you win you can use this as precedence.

Cheers, Marcus

[Hillview croconut]

BTW I am telling you all this because I telling myself the same thing .

We are in the same boat over here and it will remain as is unless DAFF are challenged.

Cheers, Marcus

[Hillview croconut]

PS Pardon my grammar - in a rush!

[Gerry Webster]

.......This is from an email from Laurence Hil (I am sure he won't mind it being posted here),
"From my work on Japanese Fritillaria and others the idea of morphological species is starting to fall apart. Each population has the potential to be a separate biological species."........

For some people the concept of morphological species finally fell apart some 50 years ago. It was in trouble in 1859.  The biological species concept has just as many problems, at least theoretically, but it might be useful to sow doubt & confusion in the minds of those agencies who control importation.

[Hillview croconut]

Mmmm  ... my first reaction ... is that where grappling with these organisations on the simple scientific of concept of a level of confidence will be a test, a fruitful discussion about the validity or otherwise of the theoretical construct of speciation will be a step way too far.

But in this particular context it might as you say sow the seeds of doubt.

One powerful argument which the NZ Fritillaria Group can mount is to point out that blanket assessments already have precedence within that country's biosecurity system. Currently assessments for the type species apply equally to the subspecies and varieties. This implies a certain acceptance of the idea of commensurate risk within closely related groups. Surely it can be argued that this principle can be extended to an entire genus where low risk is observed across its entirety??

Cheers, Marcus

[Susan]

We may have moved even further from doing anything about it recently in that at the last AGM (we haven't had one this year so at best it's a biennial meeting) it was decided to change the name of the group to Small Bulb Group as most members felt they had all the frits they could easily get and many don't want to bother with seed.

I have to take issue with this, Lesley.  The name was not changed to "Small Bulb Group", but was added to, to become, The New Zealand Fritillaria and Small Bulb Group".  This was done to  add to our seed list, as the donations of seed for Fritillarias alone were becoming scarce, and as most of the allowed Frits were well  distributed amongst us.  We had been asked if members could donate seed from other small bulbs.  In deference to the NZ Trillium Group who have an excellent seed list we will accept all but trillium seed.

As far as taking on MAF to get a blanket acceptance of Fritillaria, none of us on the committee feel that we have the expertise, nor the time  to do it.  My personal view is that it is really up to nurserymen who would be the ones who have the knowledge and the financial backing needed.

As far as I am aware, Narcissus was accepted but that general acceptance has been rescinded.  Looking at the ones allowed in by MAF there are a number  available in the rest of the world, that are omitted from the list. 

Off to mow a lawn while the sun shines.

Susan

[Doreen Mear]

Part of one problem is that none of us with the exception of Prof. John Lovis, is a botanist/taxonomist and almost certainly we will be told we aren't qualified to make such claims/requests but I agree it should be tackled ....

Leave me out of this !  I do have half an Honours degree in Botany, but was a complete dunce, in spite of having the very dashing young Clive Stace as a tutor, but that's by-the-by. As for being one of the two most likely to take up this issue, don't know why you should think that. I'm in agreement with Susan, it's up to you guys. I don't have a nursery, so don't feel the need to take on a Government department to bring in a few more species. Can't we just enjoy the ones we've got?