Fritillaria 2012

[Hillview croconut]

Hi Everyone,

I didn't mean to start a tiff between NZ members so I'll make these two points and shut up .

The nursery trade isn't interested in fritillaria nor is it interested in the sorts of small bulbs most NZ forumists would be interested in (they will already have whats available in commerce). So it will eventually be up to interest groups to move the situation on to a more equitable and administratively efficient footing.

That will mean calling to account decisions made by the EPA. If interest groups don't put their hands up they will never be noticed or taken notice of. The simple question to ask is why does the EPA continue with individual species assessments for the genus Fritillaria when there appears from your literature survey of relevant material no evidence can be found to justify it? Here is a concrete question to ask: I have on my seed list Fritillaria pelinaea is it on the NZ list? If not, why not? Just ask them that.
I think the Narcissus situation is a good example of how much of a procedural stranglehold your quarantine authorities has on meritorious and substantive debate.

I hope one day someone takes up this matter.

Cheers, Marcus
Cheers

[Maggi Young]

My impression was that Lesley was suggesting that it was likely to be up to people in specialist groups to take up this sort of matter- which is probably very true. I do not think her words implies any pressure or such towards such leading members, per se, rather that they were the  sort of "leading lights" who might be the type of people involved.  Unfortunate that umbrage seems to be taken over such an innocent comment.

[David Nicholson]

Perhaps it's true to say that in any democracy organs of Government implement rules and procedures they are allowed to get away with regardless of their general suitability. Part of the fun of living in a democracy is having the ability to question the ongoing suitability of those rules and procedures and pointing out as forcibly as possible that all perceived wisdom does not lie within the body politic-far from it. A case in point, here in the UK, were recent Government proposals to dispose of the national forests to private owners. As a result of a national campaign first started by individuals who considered this not to be "perceived wisdom" the Government dumped the whole idea. An individual will never win (well, rarely) but a group of like minded with a strong rational and sense of purpose and justice and equality has every chance. If everyone sticks their heads under the table then they get the rules they deserve. 

[Doreen Mear]

If everyone sticks their heads under the table then they get the rules they deserve.

Yeah, perhaps if you behave yourself and keep your head stuck under the table, you won't get raided at dawn!       

[Hillview croconut]

I don't think anybody here is talking about overthrowing governments .

[Gerry Webster]

The inaugural meeting of the Fritillaria Group took place 15 years ago today. About  50 members attended. The decision to form such a Group was made at a small meeting of enthusiasts held the previous Spring.

Some forumists will remember that the Group owes its existence to the vision & enterprise of the late Erna & Ronald Frank who, appropriately, are commemorated by Fritillaria frankiorum, discovered & named by Erna & Ronald’s  old friends & travelling companions, Bob & Rannveig Wallis.

Mention should also be made of the contribution of Marion & Bob Charman who have been, respectively, Membership Secretary & Treasurer of the Group since the beginning.

[Lesley Cox]

Sorry Susan, didn't mean to short change the name, just trying to keep things compact. My mistake.

I certainly didn't suggest, and wouldn't, that anyone in particular would or should, take up the issues mentioned by Marcus. It just seemed to me that if anyone WERE likely to go down that path, it would probably be - not necessarily SHOULD be - those people who hold office within the Group and have done from early on. As I mentioned in a previous post, one of the stated aims of the Group was to encourage ERMA as it was and now the newer body, and MPI, to permit all frits entry, based on reasoned arguments that none was a threat either to the environment or to the economy. If the Group has abandoned that aim, OK, so be it.

Our own Group is in no way comparable to that of the UK, FG of AGS, in that while it would be nice if our members are as enthusiastic for the genus, we do not have within our ranks those various people who are amongst the world's great authorities on the genus.

[Lesley Cox]

As for why don't I take it on myself, it is absolutely true and accurate to say that on those occasions either within the NZ Trillium Group or the NZ Fritillaria and Small Bulb Group, particularly in its former guise of NZ Fritillaria Group, when I have volunteered for jobs or offered help in any area, it has been made very plain to me that my help/presence or involvement were not required, thankyou very much. One tends to lose interest when continually turned away.

Yes, we can certainly enjoy those we are allowed to have but I would be pretty b....p...off if, another Beethoven Violin Concerto being discovered in some attic in Bonn, to be told, "No, you can never hear it. You have one already, you may not have another."

I commend highly the work of a small team of members of NZ Iris Society, none of them more highly qualified than as iris growers and lovers, who took on ERMA and yes, it took time and commitment, but their research and dedication resulted in close to 100 more Iris species names and synonyms and many other Iridaceae being added to the permitted list. They too, were working people, people with families, jobs and all kinds of unrelated commitments.

And no, I didn't offer up names to take on MAF (now Ministry of Primary Industries), just hoped that those who have purported to lead our Group would, well, lead. It seems no amount of suggesting, nudging or encouraging is going to bring that about.

[David Nicholson]

Yeah, perhaps if you behave yourself and keep your head stuck under the table, you won't get raided at dawn!   

Those kinds of things happened in the dark days of East Germany when the Stasi ruled the roost and have no place in a modern(!) democracy. As I said before if that's the kind of regime your willing to allow to exist then so be it and you get the rules you deserve.

Anthony, you're very quiet, have you succombed?

[David Nicholson]

There may be one or two people who have construed the points I have been trying to make as my condoning illegal practices. The fact is I don't, although illegal practices do have a place sometimes when reasonableness fails and I think here of matters such as the introduction of the Poll Tax in the Thatcher years where sustained illegality (or civil disobedience!) achieved change. Our Italian friends have a way of dealing with laws they think of as being unreasonable or inappropriate, they just continue to ignore them.

Lesley is quite right in her comments about the NZ Iris Society and their successes. There are two choices it seems to me, either put in some time, effort and commitment and have a go at effecting change through strength of argument and approach or do 'nowt and just moan and in 20 years the system will still be the same.

[Gerry Webster]

I had hoped that today this thread might have served, at least partially, as a place where  fritillary enthusiasts could remember & celebrate the work of Erna & Ronald Frank & the Group they founded. Instead it seems to have turned into a venue for petty squabbles between forumists. A pity.

[Maggi Young]

I hope that the irritated people will have taken time to read the thread and see that  ...
1) no-one has suggested that they personally must or should take on such representations
2) It is quite clear that it is being said that it is the Groups who are best placed to make such representations and that , if that were the case, then there are others who would offer support.

I think if the comments are read  clearly then there is no such suggestion as complained about.
Obviously, if certain folk are highly visible officers in various Groups, they will tend to be the names mentioned in connection with seeking a basis for action.

I would think that the chance afforded by the forum to allow interested parties to make contact and discuss the vagaries and often downright illogicality of some of the regulations would be a useful thing.

It seems that there is reasonable discussion here that need not be disrupted.

[David Nicholson]

I had hoped that today this thread might have served, at least partially, as a place where  fritillary enthusiasts could remember & celebrate the work of Erna & Ronald Frank & the Group they founded. Instead it seems to have turned into a venue for petty squabbles between forumists. A pity.

Sorry Gerry, me and my big mouth and I don't even grow Frits! Yes, that is a cause for celebration but I do wonder how many species the Franks collected over the years our New Zealand friends have been able to see and grow.

[Hillview croconut]

Gerry this is NOT a petty squabble - I suggest tyou reasd the thread more carefully.

Cheers, Marcus

PS It has NOTHING to do with the UK Fritillaria Group

[Hillview croconut]

And I fully endorse Maggi's comments. Its very disappointing when an attempt at a mature discussion is disrupted.

Cheers, Marcus