Cypripedium cultivation ?

[Michael J Campbell]

Yes.

[Maren]

This one survived the onslaught in my pleione house. C. formosanum is the only cypripedium I grow indoors. It's very early and although perfectly hardy, the flowers don't like a sudden frost.

Just realised, this is in the wrong topic, should be in Cypripedium 2012. Sorry.

[monocotman]

Maren,
lovely formosanum. A good sized plant.
I lost mine in the winter of 2010/11.
Must get another,
David

[Tony Willis]

Maren very nice,I see one won at the Kent show,must be warm down there mine is only 2cms out of the ground

[gote]

If you are showing these plants publicly, you take the risk that someone with official powers might confiscate the plants or, worst case, prosecute you.

I assume it depends upon the country if you get into trouble but what you say is not quite reasonable.
I grow the same Cypripedium reginae clone since the mid sixties and it has been divided and moved a few times since then. How the (Censored ) can anyone be required to show proof of purchase?
In my country I am not required to keep ANY records for more than ten years.
The normal legal doctrine is that the prosecutor must prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt. The citizen is not required to prove anything he can simply say: "not guilty".
Cheers
Göte
 

[Maren]

Hello Göte,

that used to be the same situation here, "innocent until proven guilty", but not everyone follows this principle. I have seen a number of plants being confiscated at shows (not mine, I hasten to add), because people did not have the expected paperwork. The plants are invariably put into some kind of holding place, where nobody looks after them properly and they die. So much for conservation. 

[Slug Killer]

Maren

Confiscated by who? The only people who have the power to confiscate anything are the police or customs. Even CITES/DEFRA require either one of them to be there when items are confiscated as they have no arrest or confiscation powers themselves. They also have to have reasonable grounds or evidence before confiscating anything.

Are you saying you have seen the police or customs at shows removing items from people? If not who took them? As far as I'm aware there are no other legal bodies who have the authority to take anything. Even trading standards need one or the other there when carrying out raids.

CITES, DEFRA etc only act as advisory bodies to Customs or the Police.

If you grow 'Orchids' from seed what paperwork can you show or are required to hold? None.

[Maren]

Indeed, it happened last year at the London Orchid show when a couple of young women, exhibitors from Taiwan, had quite a few boxes of plants taken away. Their stand backed on to mine, so I was well aware of the upset caused.

It came about because a lot of foreign nurseries label species grown from seed in their labs as "hybrids". This is of course factually incorrect, but it is done because in the country of origin, nurseries are not allowed to call anything a "species" unless it comes from the wild. The poor girls thought all their paperwork was in order.

I also found this naming anomaly in orchids sourced from Belgium, a misuse of language/translation, which causes problems. For instance, I purchased a number of Dactylorhiza praetermissa from Belgium, all laboratory raised, and the label said: Hybrid.

You could say, it's their own fault, why don't they use proper English. I guess it's a question of education.

[Slug Killer]

Sorry Maren, can you please tell me who actually confiscated the plants? Police/Customs? All interesting stuff being an ex TV investigative journalist myself   Seems odd that plants that had already passed through Customs on entry to the UK with paperwork would be pulled up again by Customs for having incorrect paperwork, makes them look pretty stupid.

I'm sure there are plenty of plants shown in shows that are from the wild and lets be honest we all know there are. Buy a few seedlings and then replace them a few years later with imports, who is going to say they were not the original seedlings that have been grown on. In fact there was someone doing this on a large scale and selling on the internet until March 2011 when someone pointed out they were being investigated by CITES. Strange they are not selling this year or perhaps the seedlings have not done so well last year!!!

Some of the biggest Orchid nurseries just across the channel have been buying from Chen Yi and others in large quantities for many years and are quite open about it when talking to some people who know them well (members of this forum). Nursery names withheld as they also supply some UK smaller nurseries that may not know this or simply do not ask/care as long as they are seen to be buying from a legit source. It could get very messy and complicated for all concerned and cause damage to innocent parties as well as the guilty if they were named. So there are many plants being shown bought in the UK and just across the channel that are illegal imports or descendants which are shown in shows.

[Maren]

Hi David,
I appreciate your interest, but I did not ask the people to identify themselves. I just felt sorry for the girls.

[SteveC2]

I can almost understand that there might be a problem for traders at these international shows if their paperwork is "fudged" or incomplete, and I know that one Peterborugh exhibitor from the far east had major problems prior to last year's show, and none of thier plants passed through customs until after the show, but as an amateur who shows regularly what worries me about this is that I barely have a scrap of paper to show the origin of any of my plants, even those purchased from contributers to this forum.  I purchase on trust, and am very careful who I buy from, and that ought to be enough.  For all the abuse that Ebay recieves, rightly or wrongly, at least I have my reciepts, or a computer record to show where the plant came from, albeit only one step back down the chain.  But when you purchase at an orchid show you are very rarely even given a reciept of any form.  Indeed I returned from last week's London Orchid Show with bags full of plants and as cash now seems to be the payment of choice for most dealers I did not have a single piece of paper, except Maren's pleione culture sheet!  But my bags contained species pleiones, cypripediums, dactylorhizas, all suposedly legit.  Must they now remain hidden from view, never to attend a show.  And before the tropical growers start crowing too much, surely the same logic applies to all species, not just cypripediums, not even just orchids?  So is it hybrids only from now on at shows, and who are these "plant police" to know which is which?
Maybe I'm over reacting, wouldn't be the first time, but this is potentially serious

[Slug Killer]

Maren, Never mind just interested as I would have thought it would have been all over the show if police or customs had raided someone.

Hi Steve

I'm sure you will be fine and you bought everything on good faith but as you say you have no receipts to prove where you bought it from unlike buying online or off a reputable seller on eBay. Knowing Customs and Revenue they would be more interested in 'Cash' sales with no receipts information than where the plants came from.

To be honest I don't think most of the sellers know where the plants actually come from themselves. For example some Pleione are imported with correct paperwork (CITES and Phyto) from India by nursery 'A' and sold to nursery 'B' 'C' 'D', etc but are in fact not cultivated but wild collected with the bribe given to the correct person in India (the same 'legitimate' Indian nursery will ship privately without any paperwork!)  So in fact you are all guilty of buying plants taken from the wild but buying them in good faith and as such not committing a direct crime.

It's all nonsense anyway as if plant with paperwork dies and you replace with an illegal imported one who can say it's not the one on the paperwork unless it's DNA tested. Certainly not some pen pusher in a show who has no authority to confiscate anything.

If you want to show your plants, carry on.

[Jeff Hutchings]

I was told about this forum topic at  London. As usual various issues have got mixed up. I was told that Red Book European orchids could not be sold even with paperwork so I put my BOGA hat on and phoned the CITES office. As a nurseryman I could be asked to provide provenance regarding species such as c calceolus but CITES and DEFRA do not have the time or resources to check every plant at a show (especially an amateur show). Yes, customs do get hot under the collar when plants are brought in to major shows from outside Europe with the wrong paperwork. The issue at Peterborough was confusion caused by the courier who was bringing the plants from Germany where they had been legally imported and the boxes ended up in customs . DEFRA do have staff who visit big shows to check what we are selling. I have been inspected twice at Peterborough (without any questions being asked) and twice at RHS Tatton where the inspector was interested in where my native stock came from. Members need not be afraid to exhibit their plants. Beware customs impounding plants from China. It has happened this year.

[Slug Killer]

Thanks Jeff I agree with you. I was never in any doubt about the fact DEFRA would attend shows and ask questions but merely pointing out they have no power of confiscation which can only be carried out by the police or customs under advice from them (my father worked for DEFRA until retirement and never carried a badge or gun). It's one of the things they are there for and it's DEFRA that would advise CITES if they had anything they believed should be followed up on as CITES don't have the time or structure to visit plant shows and people get confused as to what they really do. As a nurseryman you are held responsible for the plants you sell and rightly so but as you say private individuals need not worry about showing plants.  

As for China, I'm sure they are stopping packages on a daily basis from China/Thailand, some get through and some don't and that's why most of the adverts state its down to you and they will not be held responsible for items lost by customs. I do know someone who recently had a couple of plants stopped and was given a letter of warning being her first time but was told next time there would be a fine (that's not scaremongering but the truth and it was North America they were coming in from). What I find hilarious though is some buyers on Ebay that have bought from outside the EU who then leave feedback for everyone to see. No names mentioned as I know of few of you will be reading this and may want to think twice before leaving feedback for those Cyps, Pleione and other Orchids you keep buying as you are leaving yourself wide open for prosecution

[gote]

In my part of the world we rarely have shows mith medals and prices and all that so I am completely in the dark.
However, I have always believed that plants shown were supposed to show the growers skill.
If I were to buy seven Corydlis corms of some fancy type from Janis put and put them in a pot, they would give a really beautiful show in the spring but the growing skill would be Janis' not mine.
Pleiones could be a similar case.
I would have thought that a Cyp needed to be well established to qualify for a show. If it is well established it is not possible to tell wether this is a heirloom from great-grandfathers head gardener or an illegal import.
If a plantis openly and obviously imported I can understand that it needs paperwork but what are the actual legal requirements. I mean what is in the law book?
Göte