cyps in pots 2012

[Peter Maguire]

Yes, I have to confess that I never noticed that until I looked through the viewfinder of the camera.

[monocotman]

Hi,
Peter - the leaf variegation is probably due to issues with feeding.I have the same problems with some clones. They seem to take up nitrogen quite slowly in the spring and have yellowish leaves or parts of leaves for a few weeks. See the emil x kentuckiense below.
Here are the last three of the season.
First up is, as expected, kentuckiense. A nice clone with big flowers. The lip is a deeper yellow than shown, I find it difficult to get yellow lips to show up well.
Four stems and six flowers- a good result.
Next up is reginae alba, a seedling flowering for the first time. Always good to see a new plant flowering correctly. The flower is amost pure alba - only a few yellow spots in the labellum.
Lastly we have a new unregistered hybrid, Emil x kentuckiense. The flowers are pretty much as you'd expect from the parents and very similar to the cross Rascal, but with slightly larger flowers,
Regards,
David

[Stephen Vella]

David..nice kentuckiensis, they look very tall, how tall are they?... Just out of interest do you continue with your same feeding regime after flowering? and for how long?

[monocotman]

Stephen,

this clone isn't very tall, maybe 15 inches high. I was surprised that two of the four stems had two flowers.
They're big for the size of plant.
The feeding regime will continue as before for the summer. Full strength every couple of weeks for the hybrids and quarter strength for the species, apart from reginae which seems to be able to take more.
I'll switch to high potash tomato fertilizer in August. Fertilizing can be a bit random - I don't follow this slavishly, just use it as a guide.
I'll also try to ensure that the plants have some fertilizer going into dormancy.
This is to try to stop this yellowing I see in the spring in the newly developing shoots.
Regards,
David

[Stephen Vella]

I wonder if the pale new growth is from a lack of calcium and not so much the magnesium found in epsom salts. I used to use hydroponic ferts because of the hydroponic like potting mixes used and one packet had the added calcium for complete balance. I now use a general garden fert with all the micro and macro elements.

You might need to see the ingredients npk ratio and what the added macro ferts are like calcium, sulfur and micro ferts included,like zinc, magnesium, molybdenum, iron, copper etc
Im curious what the NPK is that you use at full strengh. A recomendation from spangle creek labs was a even balance of something like a npk of 8:8:8 rather than something all over the place like 20:8:12, like the a commonly general garden fert. I cant seem to find anything more balance with all micro nutrients needed.

[monocotman]

Stephen,

you may be right about the calcium and micronutrients.
I sometimes use our hard tap water to try to help with this.
There is definitely a genetic component with the pale leaf colour.
Super vigorous 'Sunny' never shows it and is always deep green.
Wouter Peters ( fasciolatum x reginae) takes most of the summer to colour up.

Regards,

David

[Maren]

Hi,

had a chat with Michael Weinert (of Frosch Cypripediums) this afternoon and he tells me that cyps should be deep green if they are not it's probably due to lack of nitrogen. He suggests hoof & horn or some other high N type of fertiliser.

[angie]

I noticed a big difference in mine this year, most were paler than I would have liked. I just put it down to to much rain watering all my feed away. I think I might start feeding earlier next year.
Maren it must have been great chatting with Michael Weinert, god I would have had so many questions to ask him 

Angie 

[monocotman]

Maren,

this is something that I've been looking into for the last 12 months.
Michael has some photos on his web site showing correct leaf colour.
Last year I tried to improve mine by feeding just before they went into dormancy.
I wondered whether the bud development during dormancy was affected by low nitrogen levels in the compost.
I also tried feeding with epsom salts occasionally.
It doesn't seem to have made much difference.
I may try some feeds with other nutrients. I've bought some of Akerne's rain mix feed for my other orchids.
It may help,

Regards,

David

[ronm]

I hope you Cyp enthusiasts don't mind me sticking my big nose in here, as I know nothing about Cyps and have never grown any. 
Reading your posts on the pale leaf colour and feeding regimes, it seems to me that you are offering plenty of nitrogen, but that the plant is unable / struggling to take it up from the compost, and is reacting slowly or not at all. This is similar (?) to acid loving plants being unable to sequester iron ( and therefore utilise nitrogen) from the 'wrong' compost? Maybe something such as a sequestering agent would help uptake on your orchids?
As I said, I am a complete ignoramous regarding orchids, but maybe a 'view from the boundary' can help?
If this is completely wrong, please feel free to say so.

[Anthony Darby]

Unfortunately the Cypripedium forum has closed, but what's left may be useful: http://www.cypripedium.de/English/know-how-e/know-how-e.html

[monocotman]

All,

for me the problem seems to be more obvious in the hybrids than species.
It is apparent in most plants during the rapid growth of the shoots in the spring.
To me this appears to be a 'rate of uptake' issue.
Most cyps have pretty limited root systems compared to other plants and a very high rate of growth early on.
Maybe this predisposes them to pale foliage early on, especially in pots where the access to nutrients may be limited.
The plants simply cannot take up enough nitrogen during the early days of shoot development with a limited root system.
But in most plants it is temporary. By the time most hybrids are flowering the leaves are a good colour or nearly so.
So I'll be using a range of fertilizers over the season( ordinary white powders/tomato food/ epsom salts) and ensuring that I finish off with a high N feed before dormancy.
I start off in spring with high N just as soon as any movement is seen in the compost and make sure that feeding is very regular- maybe once a week.
It may not remove the problem entirely but it reduces it to an acceptable level,

Regards,

David

[Maren]

Michael Weinert was suggesting that the relatively thick roots of cypripediums do not take up nutrients as efficiently as a rootball of fine fibrous roots would, as the surface area is reduced. That's why he suggested that cyps may require more feed than other orchids. Also, if a mulch is applied that contains bark or other material which uses nitrogen when it breaks down, then more feed is necessary to compensate.

Angie, you have a valid point there, Michael thought that the rain probably had washed away the nitrogen.

I have found that light levels have a lot to do with the colour of cypripedium leaves. I have a half a batch of C. kentuckiense on the north side of a wall. They are all deep green. The other half was planted on my allotment, which faces south, but I applied quite thick shading. All the same, there is much more light than at the other place and the leaves are light green.

[Stephen Vella]

David......Ron had me thinking..Iron deficiency's show up as yellow leaves with green viens.. Iron used in the chelated form is more readily available in this form and found in some potting mixes. Some ferts contain chelated iron. So maybe look there. Your tomatoe feed should contain all the micro elements but sometimes cheaper brands contain cheaper alternatives like urea for example which is a very cheap form of nitrogen but very easily taken up but also easily leached out. Hydroponic fert mixes generally don't include urea and I was told to stay away from urea as it can burn cyp roots. Im not sure how true this is..anythoughts from anyone??

Dave in regards to root development and activity from what I've seen when I have potted up cyps in late winter the roots are very active and the length are not reduced or lost, if anything there are more than the previous year if the cyp is healthy. I suspect the leaves will uptake fertilisers as well. I've always fert the leaves and potting mix.

Maren when talking to M Weinert and the use of using hoof and horn and an organic mulch was this in regards to pot culture? I use hoof and horn on cyps in the garden but too afraid to use it for pot culture. A theory is that it encourages bacterial activity that would attack the roots and therefore encouraging root rot?!. Im always wondering about that. Has anyone tried this in pots? Anthony?

cheers
Stephen

[Maren]

Hello Stephen,

Michael Weinert's recommendation of hoof and horn related to growing cyps in a garden, not in pots. I haven't discussed pot culture with him because, without sounding smug , I think I've more or less cracked it.