Greater celandine (Chelidonium majus) var. grandiflorum

[Alan_b]

Greater celandines (Chelidonium majus) arrived spontaneously in my garden and they cope very well with the dry conditions, growing well where most other plants would die of thirst.  The foliage is attractive and the flowers are profuse, pretty but rather on the small side for a good garden plant.  I recently joined the SRGC and have been reading my way through the back issues on the CD.  In an article entitled "Some Plants of Northern Siberia" beginning on Page 295 of issue Number 100,  Chris and Marie North write of seeing a form of greater celandine with larger than normal flowers, "var. grandiflorum".  I would be very interested to know if anybody cultivates this, or even knows if it is cultivated at all.  If so, I would love to get hold of some seeds and try it out in my garden.           

[Alan_b]

No responses to this one, eh?  I guess it's been seen in the wild but nobody has ever made the effort (or been there late enough in the season) to collect the seeds?

I have once seen the double (small) form of Chelidonium majus in cultivation so at least I know I'm not the only person mad enough to consider growing the greater celandine as a garden plant. 

[Croquin]

Alan, would it be possible for you to place a picture showing the size of the flowers on the small form ?
Maybe that people have the grandiflorum cultivar without knowing it, thinking it is the usual form ?
This kind of plant is usually considered as a weed, try to make it special.

[Alan_b]

I have never seen this plant, nor a photograph of it, and I don't know how big the flowers are.  All I know is:

• I have thought for some years that the "normal" greater celandine is almost garden-worthy but is let down by the small flower size.
• Actual genuine botanists (which I am not) have recorded that there is a form with larger flowers.

[Croquin]

is it possible that it is the same ?
http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/tro-50149421
http://www.tropicos.org/Name/100310234

[Alan_b]

Those links record that something called Chelidonium majus var. grandiflorum was recorded in a publication in 1821 and again in another publication in 1909.  I imagine if I had access to these publications they would tell me how large the flowers were and, presumably, where I might go to gather seeds in the wild.  No dimensions are given in the SRGC publication "Some Plants of Northern Siberia".  What I have not found is any evidence an "unusually large" variety exists in cultivation.

The width of the flowers on the "ordinary" variety growing in my garden is 2 to 3 cm.  So I would say any variety with flowers that are 5 cm (or 2 inches) wide or larger would be obviously "grandiflorum" to my eyes.  I imagine even flowers 4 cm wide would stand out as large, but perception is a funny thing.       

[Croquin]

More records report that C. majus var. grandiflorum is a synonym for C. majus - but I agree that the situation is confusing (why add var. grandiflorum ?).
It seems to be true that there are many forms.

Look here for C. majus var. asiaticum.
Another subspecies coming with pictures and rather big flowers, maybe is it the same that you are looking for (isn't grandiflorum asian too) ?
http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~flower_world/Papaveraceae/Chelidonium%20majus%20asiaticum.ht

Here you get the first 2 pages of the paper.
http://rd.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02855710

Here you find forms with greater amount of petals
http://www.luontoportti.com/suomi/en/kukkakasvit/greater-celandine
http://tryonfarm.org/share/node/317
http://www.henriettesherbal.com/pictures/p04/pages/chelidonium-majus-7.htm
http://www.treknature.com/gallery/Middle_East/Turkey/photo74117.htm
http://www.homeopathyworldcommunity.com/photo/chelidonium-majus

You can even buy here :
C. majus var. laciniatum - http://www.plant-world-seeds.com/store/view_seed_item/1424
C. majus var. flore pleno - http://www.plant-world-seeds.com/store/view_seed_item/310?itemname=CHELIDONIUM+MAJUS+FL.+PL.

Please keep me in the loop when you get substantial results.

[Alan_b]

Thanks, Croquin, very helpful indeed.  But even if, botanically, C. majus var. grandiflorum is the same thing as C. majus, that doesn't mean that there isn't a form with bigger flowers than the ones in my garden.

Your first link is broken - should be
http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~flower_world/Papaveraceae/Chelidonium%20majus%20asiaticum.htm
As far as I know, all reports of C. majus var. grandiflorum are from asia so var. grandiflorum could easily be the same thing as var. asiaticum.  The flowers do look bigger but it's very difficult to tell.

The paper looks like it would be very interesting - pity we cannot read it.

I had not found the laciniatum variety before.  I like it and will probably get some seeds.  Now all I need is the large-flowered variety to cross-breed with it!   

[Alan_b]

I know this is a very old topic but I have been reading 'Poppies...' by Christopher Grey-Wilson and this has information on Chelidonium majus var. grandiflorum

Chelidonium majus var. grandiflorum (Chelidonium grandiflorum DC) is similar to the typical plant , but is distinguished, as its name implies, by having larger flowers, up to 3.5 cm across, but also in having shorter fruit capsules and broader bracts.  This variety is native to Central Asia to Siberia and north-western China and would certainly be well worth acquiring.  However, it does not appear to be in cultivation at the present time, at least not in the West.

So it seems we are still waiting for some intrepid plant hunter to bring back seeds of var. grandiflorum.

I did manage to get myself some Chelidonium majus var. laciniatum, but I had to wait until earlier this year to find it.

[arisaema]

We may have some old seeds left, and you can buy fresh ones from Lisa here: https://www.growildnursery.co.uk/store/p895/Chelidonium_grandiflorum_W%2FO-7063_.html We bought them in from someone living in Jilin, it's native to the area.