Clematis sp. ACE94-2015

[johnw]

Help needed.   This Clematis species cw calcified hillside, San-ba, China 2600m deciduous woodlands, to 5m,  from ACE94-2015 has finally flowered here after a desparately long wait.  A google of San-ba comes up with nothing but the co-ordinates ACE give says in the vicinity of Haba Shan near Deqen, Yunnan.

Unusual that anything from as low as 2600m would be hardy here.

The flowers opened just yesterday.  We do not have a clue what it is.  Pam Eveleigh saw it last night and thought it was reminiscent of a western USA/Canada species but not really and thought that might a start to keying it out.  C. flammula finished here about two weeks ago so this one may be the latest Clematis to flower here.

Better pix promised.  (Whoops here they are Maggiepie.)

Any ideas out there?

Great talk on Primulae by Pam Eveleigh tonight.

johnw

[maggiepie]

John, am not seeing the pics??

Am really interested in seeing the plant.

[johnw]

Strange, pix showing as loaded but they were not displaying . Seems to be okay now after many attempts to re-load them.

johnw - +17c at 23:15

[ArnoldT]

See them here.

[alanelliott]

Help needed.   This Clematis species cw calcified hillside, San-ba, China 2600m deciduous woodlands, to 5m,  from ACE94-2015 has finally flowered here after a desparately long wait.  A google of San-ba comes up with nothing but the co-ordinates ACE give says in the vicinity of Haba Shan near Deqen, Yunnan.

John.

I'm working on Himalayan Clematis taxa and to me it looks like Clematis brevicaudata but I'd need more characters to get any further. I had a look at RBGE online databases to see what we have. We still have it as Clematis sp. - our living accession died in 2000, but we had a herbarium specimen but I wont be back in the garden this week, I'll look at it next week when I'm in the herbarium.

Have you tried the The flora of China interactive Key?  Its pretty good. You just add characters until you have wee list of species. All you need is a ruler to take some measurements. Any characters you cant get just ignore.
http://flora.huh.harvard.edu/china/NaviKey/Clematis/Clematis_NaviKey.html

I always then check is against the illustrations found in the normal flora
http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=107312

Good luck.
Al

[Paul T]

John,

I have the same thing growing here I think, although mine was bought as a plant, and was definitely incorrect (species it was labelled as was blue, not white).  I'd be interested to hear what it is as well, in case it helps with mine.  Are all the flowers off the new growth for the season?  If it is not the same as mine, it certainly looks the same.

[Lori S.]

Clematis mandshurica (or as I saw it on one site, Clematis terniflora var. mandshurica)?  ... which, by the way, has been surviving here.

P.S.  The Plant List shows it as Clematis terniflora var. mandshurica.

[alanelliott]

Clematis mandshurica (or as I saw it on one site, Clematis terniflora var. mandshurica)?  ... which, by the way, has been

I dont think it can be C. mandshurica as its a North Asian species and doesn't occur in Yunnan.

[johnw]

Alan - Thanks so much, that Flora of China interactive key it is very cool.

Without a lot of minute details the key has narrowed this ACE sp. down to:

Clematis brevicaudata
Clematis montana (which we can eliminate)
Clematis puberula

So now back to the plant to gather more data. 

For those using the key do be careful once you have completed your entries you must use the identfiication button rather than the back button otherewise you will have to enter the data all over again.

The colour effect of this Clematis is pale yellow or creamy yellow but that doesn't come up as  characteristic or option in the key, as the sun this morning was directly ahead the flower colour appears to be white in these photos.  No fragrance noted.   Many leaves are not serrated but some serrated as the pix show.  We're leaning toward C. brevicaudata at the moment.

Lori  - The Clematis you mentioned is in the trade here, usually as C. paniculata(!),yet  another mess.

johnw -  +14c at 23:00, clear as a bell but more rain tomorrow.

[hanninkj]

It is very difficult to determine these members from the vitalba group. I have 3 different Clematis from China from this group and I only could determine brevicaudata. When I was in Yunnan this year we saw 3-4 Clematis from this group and we (members Int. Clem. Soc.) could not determine these because only one had flowers.

Ton

[maggiepie]

Is it just me ?
When I click on thumbnails, I don't get a bigger pic, the thumbnail disappears and all I see is a jpg icon.

[alanelliott]

John

I've just spent an hour with the ACE 2015 specimen beside me and a couple of fat folders of Chinese Clematis specimen.
The specimen we have is in fruit and does not look like the bulk C. brevicaudata. The achenes are glabrous with distinct winged edges and the backs of the leaflets have a sparse covering of silky hairs - the backs of the sepals should too but I haven't seen those. It lookts most like the Type specimen of C. brevicaudata var. ganpiniana which in the Flora of China is treated as a variety of Clematis puberula var. ganpiniana. Grey-Wilson treats this taxa as a distinct species -  C. ganpiniana.

The RBGE still have Clematis curated based on Handel-Mazzetii's 1939 treatment of Chinese speces so it will be found under Clematis brevicaudata var. ganpiniana on our online catalogue.

http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=242000394 - Flora of China C. puberula treatment

http://elmer.rbge.org.uk/bgbase/vherb/bgbasevherb.php - RBGE's herbarium catalogue (updated every evening with the days changes)

Ultimately as the naming of plants is democratic so you can decide who's taxonomy to follow.

Hope this helps
Al

[johnw]

Thanks so much for all the hard work Alan, this is very much appreciated!

johnw

[hanninkj]

Here pictures of my C. brevicaudata from China, as plants from China.

[Lesley Cox]

Strange, pix showing as loaded but they were not displaying . Seems to be okay now after many attempts to re-load them.

johnw - +17c at 23:15

So you have that problem too?