Pulsatilla 2013

[Susann]

I am still with Jozefīs nice picture of a Holubec collection in Kazakhstan. I remember that Vladimir Epiktetov showed a picture of a plant looking like that one, but yellowish, naming it P campanulata. Olga and I had an interesting discussion about it during an escape lunch in Tábor. We had a quick check at Internet and we realized that almost all European pictures featured a blue flowering plant that seems to follow the description of Flora of Russia. While all the Russian*/Asian pictures seemed to look like the one Jozef now show. Please observe that the stamens are longer than the sepals in Jozefīs picture. The sepals are hardly not reflexed.  Do you have any pictures of the leaves, Jozef?
Is there anyone who can clearify this? I have no time to check with Aichele & Schwimmer as it is a very extended work in German, which I do not speak. Keiser  just quotes Flora of Russia and Flora of China claims it is a erect-flowering species, similar to pratensis, belonging to the albana group.

Flora of Russia says" ...stamens just slightly shorter than tepals...flowers more or less declinate, campanulate; tepals 20-27 mm long, 3-13 mm broad, with reflexed tips, violet-blue..." And of course, a lot about the leaves...

The confusion is about the same in the NARGSīs forum. Some showing the blue-flowering plant, some the plant with yellowish very hairy flowers.  You also find some pictures of different albana forms claiming it is campanella. I am happy that Kelaidis- which is a heavy "name", states that albana is not campanella.

The flowers of Jozefīs images has more or less the shape of P wallichiana, which is said to be an endemic of Pakistan and Kashmir. It is very interesting, as Flora of Russia describes something quite different.
I can not find any photos of the wallichiana at internet. The only one I have got is Dr Ikanenīs, which showes a plant grown by him. He thinks it is wallichiana, but I tend to think it is the species we see in several images, growing much closer to Finland than is Pakistan.


Image from Flora of Pakistan of P wallichiana


Dr Timo Ikanenīs picuture. It looks very much like the campanella form Olga, Jozef and Harry Jans( below) shows.


This picture is from Kyrgyztan, image by Harry Jans. This beautiful plant looks the same as the plant Epiktetov showed from Kazakhstan.

My plants, with blue flowers ( shown earlier in the thread)  comes from Mojmir Pavelka seeds, and also RMRP ( Which might be a little out of the way as they operated from Northamerica)

* To all Russian readers, please do not feel offended. I do know Russia has an European part as well.

[Susann]

Back again, still thinking of the same subject; the confusion about P campanella. I really hope that someone is preparing a long, interesting and clearifying answer to my posts.

I have been out in the rain ( the Scotts seem to think rain and cold is very typical Scottish? I think it is typical Swedish) taking pictures of the plant I have got from Mr Pavelka ( seeds) as P campanella. This is the form you find on most of the European photos. Of course it might just be because we all have it from the same source. Still, I want to be absolutely sure that we are wrong and that the yellowish form is the true species. The difference of the color does not make me wonder, as a lot of species vary in color and leaf shape. But it is so much hairier, and the stamens are much longer than the sepals ( or are all the pictures taken very late in the end of the flowering period?) and it does not exactly match the description of Flora of Russia?


Leaves of the plant


Leaves of the plant to the left, to have a comparishment. The leave to the the right is from seeds from Holubec received as P turczaninovii, but that Olga has had a long discussion earlier in this thread, proving it is P ambigua. As you can see, the leaves differ in color, size and texture, and also in hairiness.

Now I leave this to you others to solve, as I am heading for the parts of our world where P rubra grows. Unfortunally spring is very late in Picos de Europa, northern Spain, My botanist friend there tells me I might not be able to see it in flower. P alpina ssp alpina and ssp alba also grows in the area, and so do P vernalis. I hope to see at least some Pulsatillas, and not only Narcissus and oaks.

[Jozef Lemmens]

Susann, I hope these pics will help a little bit.
Have a nice trip to the Picos.

[Olga Bondareva]

... Just appear to say Jozef's P. campanella looks true.
Images etc will come tomorrow...

[Susann]

Thank you Jozef for the pictures, and the trouble you have taken with paper background, measure stick and all. I can clearly see that the leaves differs a lot from my plants. ( I do not know the origin of the RMRP seeds. unfortunally I have not made a note. But it looks the same as the plant from Mr Pavelkaīs seed). By the way, the leaves of your plant is actually very nice. Or might I say very very nice? They also differ from the leaves of Dr Ikanenīs plant.

I got some seeds from Olgaīs campanella. I think it was last year, or two years ago? Anyway, there are now two seedlings. I will repot them tomorrow, before leaving. I hope they will be as nice as the mother plant, that she has showed earlier in this thread, very yellow. Also, a few P occidentalis has germinated in a pot left from last year. As all the seedlings of last year drowned, I am very happy to have a few more ( to kill...) Now, we just have to hope that nature, slugs and dear neighbor treat them with care while I am gone.

Olga, if you have got time, please try to post your images and a nice and clearifying text tomorrow. (And please have a close look at the stamens) It would be so nice not have to wonder about this anymore. My plants do not have as finely divided leaves as turczaninovii. It is not ambigua. And, one of the plants is very tall ( If trying to think of bungeana as they have more broadly divided leaves? ). My plants flower all summer. I remember we agreed on that is typically for campanella? The seeds are wildcollected. I can not think of more information right now.

[Lori S.]

The confusion is about the same in the NARGSīs forum. Some showing the blue-flowering plant, some the plant with yellowish very hairy flowers.  You also find some pictures of different albana forms claiming it is campanella. I am happy that Kelaidis- which is a heavy "name", states that albana is not campanella.

I have been reading this thread but am still not sure if I'm grasping the subtleties of the different IDs correctly.  I'd be delighted to correct my records and anything I've posted on the NARGS site if someone could help me with a couple of IDs.   
I've posted some photos here:
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=10492.0

Thanks in advance!

[Olga Bondareva]

Now I am at home and can post some Pulsatillas and answer. 

Susann is that your bed of Pulsatillas?  Great!
But I do not wonder they hybridize easily. They are so closely planted.

I see the same Papageno in our gardens.  I just shoot some mine.

[Olga Bondareva]

Pulsatilla vulgaris Perlen Glocke is one of my favorite.

[Olga Bondareva]

Pulsatilla albana with self sown Fritillaria ruthenica



Pulsatilla ambigua



Pulsatilla subslavica

[Olga Bondareva]

And mysterious Pulsatilla campanella. 

This is true P. campanella from seed I put in Tian-Shan in 2004. All plants are the same (I have 7). No hybrids with other species. Most of seeds are not viable. Now I pollinate plants with a brush for better setting.



It is the tiniest species I've ever seen. Flowers are small. Stamens become longer than petals during the blooming.

And this is wrong Pulsatilla I've got from the same (I think) sourse under P. campanella name.



It is much higher. Petals become longer and longer (and longer than stamens) during the blooming. Of course it is not P. campanella. And I am finding a difficulty in identifying it. It is not P. ambigua or P. turczaninovii. It could not be P. bungeana because of it's size.

Jozef's P. campanella is brownish. It is right. It could be brownish or purplish from some locations. Josef, I would be pleased to swap seeds. 

[Susann]

Oh,

more confusion, and no time to think... The yellow one you show Olga, is what I -and all the Czechs- grow as a P albana form.  You see it in all gardens, somethims labelled P albana f alboviolacea?

Your mysterious plant does not look quite like mine, mine are  much more blue. But no time to study your pictures right now, I need to repot the seedlings I found yesterday. I have been interrupted the whole day by neighbors.

Yes, the īPapagenoīare very very tightly together, as if they were carrots. But it looks quite nice. Other species are spread out in rockeries and borders. But the garden is not very big, only 1500 m2, so they do hybridize, and very nicely.

Letīs keep discussing my questions when I am back! Meanwhile; please keep posting beautiful photos from your gardens and nature all over the world.

  [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ]
this form I have got several times from different collectors as an albana form

[Olga Bondareva]

more confusion, and no time to think... The yellow one you show Olga, is what I -and all the Czechs- grow as a P albana form.  You see it in all gardens, somethims labelled P albana f alboviolacea?

No confusions.  It is Pulsatilla campanella. True. I collected it's seed in 2004 in Tian-Shan in thousands km from places where P. albana grows.  You can see yellow P. albana above. It differs. And it is true because of the same reason - it is directly from nature.
I can shoot P campanella again tomorrow with marcescent flowers.

... or is there any misunderstanding? How yellowish plant can be called alboviolacea? What picture are you talking about?

[Susann]

Oh, I could not stay away. I was thinking while repotting, doing the dishes and taking a shower... And now I have a question to answer to, so it was good I could not resist logging in again.

The flower you showed are in all the Czech gardens, named as P albana. I have received it several times as P albana  and ssp albana. In some gardens it is more light yellow, almost creme, and with more purplish backside. I have seen the label "alboviolacea".  For example; Mr Vlasak names it that way. In Sweden I have seen the light yellow form with a cultivar name; `Mauveī. I have several photos from Czech gardens but they are all in RAW. I add a picture of what in Sweden is called `Mauveī, it seems -at a quick glance- be very similar to your plan?. I am probably, as usual, wrong...The leaves might be more finely divided?  I also add a picture of what Peter Korn thinks is campanella, probably collected by Stellan somewhere in Kazakhstan/ Kyrgysthan.


"Mauve"



Peter Kornīs plant

Sorry to be so stubborn; but are you sure your plant is the same species as Epiktetovīs, Janīs and Jozefīs? ( I do accept it is not an albana) The ones I have that looks a lot like yours never show so tightly short and hairy sepals in the beginning? Please, see Jozefīs and Mr Janīs pictures and tell us what you think? The dark color is also more uniform in their pictures? I am really sorry I keep asking and asking and asking. So much confusion. ( Yes, I understand that you do not feel confused, Olga, but I do, and apparently a lot of others too)



Finally, here is the picture meant to be published in my last post. It was taken yesterday in my garden, seeds received as P albana. 

[Olga Bondareva]

Susann, I am thinking about Pulsatillas a lot too.  And after all conversations I have some ideas.

But now about the plant. Yes my plant(s) is the same species with Vladimir's and  Janīs and Jozefīs.  I know it. Do you remember images of previous years?



I grow P. albana yellow, whitish and violacea forms. They differs in their flowers.

Color of P. campanella flowers depends on location.
http://www.plantarium.ru/page/view/item/30894.html

[Tim Ingram]

That is a very lovely photo Olga. From what I can see all the forms of campanella have rather demure flowers where the tepals do not reflex outwards, and from the viewpoint of successful pollination this may be why the stamens are often strongly exserted (Jozef's plant is a really good example of this). These two plants that I saw in Czech gardens (like Susann says) must be albana (and are definitely what is grown in the UK under this name). Maybe these two species intergrade in places? The pictures on the website you show are really valuable in demonstrating the natural variation in campanella - colour doesn't seem to be a strong distinguishing feature.

The third picture I have come round to calling ambigua after your discussions and pictures. There is a lot of confusion amongst gardeners and I was given the names bungeana and turczaninovii, and presumably all these three species have close similarities. I think this was my favourite pulsatilla of all; a very elegant plant.