Pulsatilla 2013

[Hoy]

I have never been particularly concerned with the (scientific) name of a plant species other than to ensure we speak about the same thing. For what is a species? It depends on what you define as a species. And which characters count most when defining a species? The characters you decide is more important - for you. Those which are easy to see for instance. Characters like colour, leaf shape, hairs (of all kinds) doesn't really matter much - they can all vary very much inside one population or from one population to the next.

Even with increasingly more knowledge of the DNA content of an individual it is difficult to define a species. Which individuals do you put together and name as a species and which is another species or just a sub species! Tiny differences in the genome and the expression of a certain genes can be controlled by not obvious epigenetic factors.

Although the goal of classification now seems to reflect the evolution and put the individuals more closely related together as species and genera etc, living "species" are plastic and ever changing and difficult to enclose in a "box" with a scientific name on.

For me a name is the way I can ascertain I get what I want. But with the huge variation within a so called species you never know. And that is exciting too!

Trond, it's much easier to find P. aurea seeds in Europe than in Russia. And it's a hard germinator and grower.

Yes, possibly - but if I got it from a local source it would probably be more like what I want!

Why is it hard to find anybody trading Russian seed? With all those fabulous plants growing there somebody starting an internet business would have many customers, I am sure

[Natalia]

Tim, thank you - your words are encouraging

 Unfortunately, at huge richness of opportunities researches DNA of plants are often connected with considerable financial expenses and therefore aren't available to all researchers. (

So while scientists won't find a way to make these researches cheaper or the states won't understand all importance of these researches - we should be content with only separate researches.

 Trond, it completely agrees - only genetic  researches give the chance to build a true "tree of the genus".

Apropos Pulsatilla aurea: I grew up this species from the Czech seeds, but there ascended only one seed.
In our country there is no opportunity to buy these seeds

[Susann]

I have never been particularly concerned with the (scientific) name of a plant species other than to ensure we speak about the same thing. ..
For me a name is the way I can ascertain I get what I want. But with the huge variation within a so called species you never know. And that is exciting too!

Second: I totally agree with you in your arguing about what is a species and why. If a plant is beautiful in my garden and I can not determind exactly what it is I just enjoy it, accepting it is "something". But, if I am going to share it with someone else the problems start. And as Pulsatilla happend to be such a super-plastic genus with so much misunderstandig not only among us gardeners but also among botanists, and adding to that having so many ( invalid) names in use,  I am really interested in this. I am inclined to think the European botanists are quite clever when for example accepting P patens as a very variable species, and therefor just put ssp or f to the more obvious differences. The Russians, as I understand, are more inclined to put a species name to the different natural varieties. When I give talks I always try to sneak in some Pulsatilla information trying to make the audience aware of how complex the genus is and how very easy it hybridizes. I find it a little sad that people keep sending seeds of garden origin to the lists as true species.  It makes the confusion even worse. I would like it to be sent as " Pulsatilla ex species this and that"  or just "Pulsatilla hybrid".

Why is it hard to find anybody trading Russian seed?

I have been told that Russians are having problems as they are not allowed to send seeds or plants abroad. That is why we have to rely on the Czecks that does a wonderful work.

[Olga Bondareva]

Why is it hard to find anybody trading Russian seed? With all those fabulous plants growing there somebody starting an internet business would have many customers, I am sure

Why don’t you start? 
We are still much closed country. Many things are not as easy as you think.

For what is a species? It depends on what you define as a species. And which characters count most when defining a species? The characters you decide is more important - for you.

I totally agree with you. But not me or you decide what is species and why. Because we are not botanists.

One clever person discovered a very interesting garden (landscape) law. The law of 20 steps. If you can not distinguish two plants from 20 steps the plants are the same. And when we think about garden beauty the law works. And does not matter do you plant out Pulsatilla vulgaris or P. turczaninovii. They look the same from 20 steps. And we can call the plant for ourselves “that violet pretty flower”.

But when you call the plant for other people you should call it correctly according to botany nomenclature.

European botanists are quite clever when for example accepting P patens as a very variable species, and therefor just put ssp or f to the more obvious differences. The Russians, as I understand, are more inclined to put a species name to the different natural varieties

Susann the Europeans do not have any variability in P. patens. No need for them to divide the species (although you know I agree with you in case of Asian P. patens).

[Susann]

Olga, that rule is so clever, thank you for telling us! I wish for example the Hemerocallis folks could learn about it. I have no idea how many thousends of cultivars looking more or less the same they have put into trade.
Regarding to my comment about the naming of for example the P patens, as usual, I was unclear. I ment that european botanists put all the Asian P patens into one species, they put the P multifida as P patens ssp multifida and so on.

[Hoy]

Why don’t you start? 
We are still much closed country. Many things are not as easy as you think.
I totally agree with you. But not me or you decide what is species and why. Because we are not botanists.

One clever person discovered a very interesting garden (landscape) law. The law of 20 steps. If you can not distinguish two plants from 20 steps the plants are the same. And when we think about garden beauty the law works. And does not matter do you plant out Pulsatilla vulgaris or P. turczaninovii. They look the same from 20 steps. And we can call the plant for ourselves “that violet pretty flower”.

But when you call the plant for other people you should call it correctly according to botany nomenclature.
Susann the Europeans do not have any variability in P. patens. No need for them to divide the species (although you know I agree with you in case of Asian P. patens).

Olga, neither am I a businessman nor have I (easy) access to Russian seeds

The 20 step rule is nice, however it depends on whether I use glasses or not! On the other hand I do like to try different proveniences of plants whether they are the same species or not to achieve more variation and greater probability of viable offspring!

[zvone]

Hi!

Pulsatilla from My Garden (2012):







Best Regards!  zvone

[Susann]

Beautiful! Thank you for showing us.

[Susann]

I am going back to the discussion about P turczaninovii vs P ambigua and the discussion of P dahurica vs P cernua as I have finally scanned the images of Flora Plantarum Herbacearum Chinae Boreali-Orientalis tomus III. I think the drawings are of high quality and much better than the drawings of Flora of China.

Unfortunally there is no image of P ambigua. But if anyone reading this happen to read Chinese I would very much appreciate a translation of the extended text and key of Pulsatilla of the flora.

[Great Moravian]

A beautiful and valuable thread.

[Olga Bondareva]

the images of Flora Plantarum Herbacearum Chinae Boreali-Orientalis tomus III. I think the drawings are of high quality and much better than the drawings of Flora of China.

Susann the drawings are perfect and they show very well species. P. turczaninovii is drown very good. Look at finely dissected leaves and the shape of flowers and the stamens/petals proportion.
P. dahurica looks true too especially enlarged leaf.

[TheOnionMan]

Wonderful photographs and information, this is a topic to set on "Notify".

[Natalia]

 To comparison  Pulsatilla daurica - Pulsatilla cernua...
I found in old archive of a photo Pulsatilla cernua. Unfortunately, Pulsatilla cernua have no accurate photo of a leaf. But the plant grows in a garden - in the spring is possible to make a photo.

Pulsatilla cernua

[Susann]

A beautiful and valuable thread.

Wonderful photographs and information, this is a topic to set on "Notify".

Thank you for so nice words, and thank you to all to keep contributing to this thread. It is very interesting. I hope there will be many more photos to study as soon as spring reaches us. Perhaps you Josef will have possibility of showing us photos of the locality you mentioned before, with the white - and golden haired P grandis?

[Great Moravian]

Perhaps you Josef will have possibility of showing us photos of the locality you mentioned before, with the white - and golden haired P grandis?

I photograph solely in my garden. Nevertheless, there are images of the locality I spoke about on the web.
http://cestovani.idnes.cz/podivejte-se-na-svetovou-raritu-nejvic-koniklecu-kvete-za-panelaky-v-brne-1r7-/tipy-na-vylet.aspx?c=A090406_120850_igcechy_tom
http://www.ahojbrno.cz/koniklece-brno/
http://www.ivcajirka.estranky.cz/fotoalbum/2009-okoli-brna/pr-kamenny-vrch---svetova-koniklecova-rarita/